'Challenging' 3 month olds - come and join me!

[AngelDog]

There seem to be rather a lot of us with 3 month old (ish) babies repeatedly crossing paths on the Sleep threads at the moment. Any of you care to join me to moan / swap suggestions?

I know we have sleep fighters, non-nappers, catnappers, struggling to settle at night and bedtime battles out there, so I'd love to hear how things are going and what's working for you. I shan't name names in case you don't want to join in, but I think at least some of you know who you are!

I'll start: DS is nearly 13 weeks, gets overtired very easily, and needs an incredible amount of sleep day and night, or else he gets chronically overtired. During the day he'll pretty much only go to sleep in the sling, although at night he'll usually feed to sleep. I can rarely put him down in his cot before he's asleep, though, as he will then kick off. Leaving him to it is pointless as he'll lie there happily awake for 3 hours, before eventually conking out (and then only with help from me), and will wake up just 10 mins later. Normally he is only awake for 30-45 minutes before he is yawning and tired. He doesn't sleep in the car, baby swing, bouncy chair or pram (although I'm going to give this another try soon), and will not sleep if he's able to see anything at all.

I'd be especially interested to hear from those of you whose babies fight sleep - how do you manage to get them off?

I don't have much new to add but wanted to join in as there is so much familiar to me and it's great to know it's not just me and my DS!

DS is 16 weeks and a delight. His nighttime sleeping is good and I definitely cannot complain about that. Daytime is another matter. He just doesn't want to go to sleep! We've swung between trying to "enforce" naps every 1.5-2 hours, to letting him do his own thing. The latter doesn't work because he doesn't seem to be able to drop off on his own. There's always lots of crying with the former and when he does go down, it's for precisely 45 minutes and no more.

I completely empathise with the frustration many of you feel... I seem to have spent a lot of time in the last 4 months in a darkened room trying to get a crying baby to sleep and doubting whether I was doing the right thing. My current routine is to put him down in his cot and stroke/shush him until he goes to sleep. This can take absolutely ages and it can involve some pretty high-key crying. Fairly often I abandon the nap because of the distress. I had a quick go at pick up/put down but it just confused him. Plus picking up rarely stops the crying. My aim is one cot nap a day. He will go off in the buggy or the car although it can take a fair while. I also let him sleep on me fairly often but that also involves lots of crying. I've abandoned rocking him to sleep - it's tough to do and he is guaranteed to wake up as soon as he is put down.

PDog - I feel I could have written most of your posts! I used to hold DS's arms down.. my current m.o. is to have one hand stroking his belly and the other brushing over his eyes and face. I totally know how you feel - I too have the NCNS and felt awful when I read about the "volcano effect" or whatever it was. But we are doing the best we can and all babies are different. I just try to start each day with a positive outlook (easier said than done) and put behind me the crying of the day before. Also, I've decided that your own baby sounds at least 10 times as loud when crying than any other baby .. actually this might not be true of my DS but thinking it keeps me sane when we are out and about!

Glad to know I'm not the only one who's shed tears along with their offspring over this issue! You've got to laugh though else you'd go mad. When DS is in his cot and yawns he does this whole eyes snapping open thing where he clearly pretends that wasn't a yawn and he's totally rested thanks mum. Bless.

One question on the muslins - DS puts everything is his mouth, I would worry about him choking on a muslin in his cot - am I being silly about that?

Skandi, your schedule sounds great, but how do you get away to be able to go back up the stairs iyswim? DS cries constantly when I put him down and I don't want to leave him crying.

Morning,

For the first couple of days, I stayed in the room with DD while she settled. That way she's go in the cot and lie and comfort with her dummy and comforter and feel calm because I was there.

On day 3, I'd put her down whilst talking softly to her repeating the same thing over and over so that she'd eventually come to recognise that as the words to settle - I guess you could say anything you wanted but I said: "nap time, settle yourself, settle yourself". Once down in the cot, I would start moving out of the room slowly.

Invariably for the next few days, I'd get to the door or just beoynd and she'd start crying. It wouldn't always be the full on cry but more of a fake sort of "I'm going to cry if you leave" type thing.

I would return to the cot reassure her and keep on with the "naptime, settle yourself". and then leave the room again.

After lots and lots of back and forth, I'd get further and further from the room and down the stairs. But as soon as she would start with crying or even the fake I'm going to cry, I'd return immediately so that she would learn that I was listening to her and always always come back immediately.

Importantly, in the beginning even if she hadn't slept or slept much, I would pick her up when naptime was finished (ie after 45mins in the morning or after 2hrs over lunch).

As days passed, she wouldn't go for the all out wail but try some fake crying to get me back into the room and then smile at me. Annoying as it was, I just persisted and eachtime, I'd leave the room and make my way downstairs.

By the end of the first week, I would make it downstairs by 3rd or 4th attempt and she would start sleeping and taking the naps.

Bear in mind that I could then have total success with the morning nap and be really pleased only to fail with the lunchtime nap and she'd really play up.

And yes it was really frustrating for a couple of weeks and on days where she was really testing me and I would have a little cry and wonder whether I was a bad mother.

But each day I would win a little more. And after 2 weeks, she'd go for her morning nap and go straight down with no fuss and sleep at lunch time with only minimal fuss (me returning only a couple of times).

USERNAMEANGST,
I never ever left DD crying. I just couldn't do that. And by doing as above that never happened. And yes it seems like a lot of work now (and it can be) but unlike some of my friends with 1 year olds who wont nap and wail all the time with tiredness, DD naps with no fuss and she's a happy little camper.

Try staying in you DSs room for a few days while he settles or even thru the whole nap and then gradually try to leave the room.

Also with muslins and comforters, DD shoves everything in her mouth and her comforters are soggy after every nap. But if you're worried, get a cloth comforter from a shop which will be a little smaller and harder to get in the mouth.

If your DS cries as soon as you lay him in the cot, then hold him in the room for a while, and if you have a mobile turn it on, give DS his comforter/muslin and when he seems settled then try to put him down in the cot. And persist with it until you're able to lay him down and then you can start trying to leave the room.

If your DS will nap in his stroller then its much easier. My problem was the DD wouldn't nap in her stroller or car seat at all! Hence no choice but to go for the above.

XXX

Welcome UserNameAngst! I would guess at 16 weeks choking on a muslin would be unlikely - they tend to be able to move around enough to get themselves out of trouble by then don't they? Certainly my DD has a soft toy in her cot now (in a failed attempt to get her to associate sleep with a toy she seemed to like!!) and she can move it around - DD is 15 weeks tomorrow.

She's still keeping me on my toes - yesterday had 20 minutes, woke up shattered so we put her back down, had a 30 minute screaming fit so I fed her (which wasn't the problem as she wasn't that interested!) then she had another 20 miuntes before waking up shattered again. She then steadfastly refused to sleep in the pushchair even with a muslin when in desperation I went for a long walk. Gave up, fed again and then played for a bit. Then thought I'd have a go at putting her in the cot because I'd tried everything else and she'd had virtually no sleep so was very grumpy. She cried for 2 minutes and slept for 2 1/2 hours .

This morning she's had 50 minutes and is currently nearly an hour into her second nap. I've done nothing different (though DP is obviously at work today) so I'm completely confused! Nextdoor are drilling as she's slept right through it. She's also slept better at night, only waking twice last night and not crying when we put her back in the cot - though it did take 1 1/2 hours to get her to sleep the second time.

Why?!?! I wish I understood babies....

Babies eh! There's not always a reason.

Littlestlass, it sounds likes your DD is getting there with naptime. She's doing good today. Perhaps she wasn't feeling 100% yesterday? Or dare I say it, teething?

My DD was around 16/17 weeks by the time naptime was fully established. And even then naps could go downhill due to teething.

If she wakes these days its due to teething and I usuallly realise before I even put her down (red cheek drooling and pulling at the mouth).

You can always try some teething granuels (Nelsons Teetha) and see.

The problem is that babies need sleep, you can't "make" them sleep but if they don't get their sleep, the wail.

Whats good with scheduled naps is that even when things are going awry, you know what time it is and what should be happening. And if they're ill, sleep can become erratic (did when DD had V&D bug recently) and then its nice to have the schedule to sort of "cling to".

I'm not saying I'm militant about it, I'll adjust naptime starts if she has been up extra late or extra early although its rare. And if I go to wake her and she is out cold, I'll leave her a little longer.

XXXX

Welcome, UserNameAngst. skandi1, thank you for taking the time to explain your method in such detail.

UserNameAngst, I do something similar to skandi1 at bedtime - if DS is realy unsettled and starting to cry when I put him in the cot drowsy after his feed, I pick him up and rock him / pat his bottom / give a dummy / play white noise as necessary until his eyes are closing but he's not quite asleep. Then I transfer him into his carry cot so that he's still lying in my arms but inthe cot and continue until his eyes are closing again. Then I remove my arm from under his head and put my arm alongside his head and continue with the bottom patting etc. I then remove my arm from the cot, then eventually stop the bottom patting and allow his legs to roll flat - either when he's almost asleep (if I'm feeling awake & patient) or (if I'm tired & desperate to go to bed myself) once his eyes are fully closed. DS will now often settle himself if I put him down drowsy but awake.

A paediatrician friend of ours gave us some advice about DS's sleeping. He said that if we're always having to fight him to sleep, then we are obviously interpreting his sleepy signals incorrectly. His suggestion was to look again at his sleepy signs, and put DS in his cot (where he would almost certainly cry) but that he should eventually get the hang of 'giving in' to sleep.

We're now keeping DS up for much longer at a time and ignoring the yawns that come 30-45 minutes after he wakes up. After about an hour and a half, he is now doing really obvious yawns, which is when I'm now trying to get him off. It has been taking him 5 minutes to get to sleep instead of 20. However, he now seems to want to sleep for mostly 30 mins, whereas before he would usually do 45 . Our paediatrician friend did say to expect this, but that it is fine, and not to worry about it.

I have even been managing to rock/pat/white noise/dummy him to sleep in my arms rather than using the sling. Rather than just putting him in his oot and letting him cry, I'm going to try to work on a 'gradual withdrawal' method like I've been doing at bedtime. We shall see - at least it still leaves the crying option as a possibility.

skandi1 We got a little panicky about teething a couple of weeks ago when the drooling really started and she was crying a lot, but so far it's not happened. Which I have to admit to being slightly relieved about - not because of the sleeping but because she tends to be a bit chompy and I think my nipples are really going to suffer

Well that hour nap I mentioned earlier turned into two hours and then I had to wake her up otherwise we were going to miss the HV. She's now asleep again after about 15 minutes crying. If it is just that she's feeling better today, long may it continue!!

Mind you I'm feeling ever so slightly as a loss with all this free time I suddenly have

Hello all,

skandhi1 thank you so much for your time in explaining what you did with your DD. I think all of us seem to aiming for the same success in very similar ways.

usernameangst- hi, nice to know i am not the only one shedding tears over this. Welcome, keep us updated.

PDog your social situation seems so similar to mine, with you DP working a lot and no family closeby. You sound like you are doing better than me at getting out and about, trying to track down my HV- seems to have lots of days off!!

littlelass congratulations I hope it lasts.

angledog we have found that with DD you have to ignore the early tired signs otherwise she only sleeps 20 mins, she needs to get a little cranky before she sleeps longer.

We have also noticed that there is an opportunity to get her to sleep every 45 mins, sounds crazy!!! probably in our sleepy desperation we are imagining it!!

Well DD and I are having a sofa afternoon, she had her 3rd et of imms this afternoon and she didn't sleep well this morning, so she's asleep on me (bad i know)

Thinking a nap schedule is the way forward, but i know that once i start it i'm going to have to keep it up for a couple of weeks- tough.
The other problem is my DD settles herself and does want to sleep but her stupid digestive tract seems to cause a lot of her sleeping problems (reflux and constipation and lots of farts). She tries really hard. So i don't know if we should just ride this out until we have got on top of all those problems but then we could have some tough bad habits to break.

i'm just so confused by it all .

Littlestlass, maybe your DD liked the drilling? White noise is supposed to help babies sleep.

yellowbutterfly, I think immunisations need you to just help DD sleep any way possible. certainly DS has been overtired & screamy after both sets of jabs so far.

I managed to put DS down in his cot as soon as he went to sleep this afternoon. I got wildly excited, got out the feather duster and cleaned the cobwebs off the bathroom ceiling. I'm as rock & roll as Littlestlass!

PDog, skandi1 & DrDoobs, I meant to say thanks for your helpful suggestions earlier. I'm interested in the idea of using muslins as a comforter. Has anyone who's tried using them found that the DC gets 'confused' if there are muslins around at other points? e.g. using when feeding, burping etc? I guess I'm looking for something which will signal 'sleep' to DS but something which is easily washable / replaceable too. Muslins sound ideal, but I do use them a lot, not just at sleep times.

Good question about muslins AngelDog .

Hello all and welcome UserNameAngst.

Glad to read that some of you are having some success - it gives me hope, although DD seems to be getting worse. I think I must just be crap at reading her sleepy signs and either put her down too early or too late very .

Had a particularly challenging day today - DD being grumpy for most of it due to lack of sleep. Tried putting her down in her cot and sitting in the room but she ended up in tears. Managed to ger her to take a 30 min nap at lunchtime in our bed. She fell asleep during a feed early afternoon but woke up screaming when I tried to move her. Once I'd calmed her down I tried desperately to ger her back to sleep to no avail

She then didn't sleep at all on a trip to the supermarket - either in the car or during the shop, which is unusual .

Yes I think a nap schedule is the way forward too Yellow Butterfly. Going to start on Thurs as have things on the afternoon til then so need her to sleep in the morning by any means.

AngelDog I am also interested in your qs about muslins. My attempts so far to give DD a comforter have resulted in her pulling it over her face

PDog, Hope tomorrow is better for you.

A follow-up question about the muslins / comforters - is there any point bothering with one if DS is swaddled (which he is for all naps & nighttime at the moment)?

He does seem to like grabbing muslins, but I don't think that's intentional - just that there often happens to be one around his hands which he is always stuffing into his mouth!

PDog, i'm with you. up and down this end aswell. Do think in some way when DH home over weekend it unsettles them .
Think i'm putting off starting a nap schedule as i know i'm going to have to stick to it rigidly (think you guys may come in when i finally do it, if that's ok ). Difficult when you are tired with little support.

AngelDog I don't see why you can't use a muslin/comforter if swaddled!!! why not?

DD ok after her imms, which is great as last couple of times she has been a bit poorly, but will be keeping a close eye overnight.

Motherhood so tough

yellowbutterfly - probably I'm being daft, but I was thinking that they would need to be grabbing on to the comforter for it to be useful. But of course, they can still feel / smell it even in a swaddle.

Blame it on the 'baby brain'!

We are definitely happy to keep tabs on your routine when you want to start it. I can't imagine how you cope with a DH who's away a lot. In practice, my DH doesn't do that much of the babycare since I'm the only one who can do the feeding / get DS to sleep, but he does keep on top of the washing & cooking etc for me, plus it's nice just to have another person around.

I'm trying to keep a record of DS's sleep / wake habits for a few days to see if I can work out some sort of routine for him. We could have a mass routine-thing going on here...

I agree, motherhood is far tougher than I ever imagined - and I expected it to be difficult.

Hello

I have no advice but I can empathise with lots of the posts on here as I have a 16 week old DD who seems to have given up on sleep so have been watching this thread with interest...

DD is great and was sleeping well at night - waking up once for a feed about 3.30 and once or twice even sleeping right through.

However over the last 2 weeks she has started waking up 4 or 5 times a night and the tiredness is slowly killing me

She has also never really taken to daytime napping so is super screamy and overtired by 5pm every day.

I can get her to go down for 45 minutes max in the morning with no problem but then that's it for the day unless we happen to be out and then she might nap in the pram or car or will doze in her bouncer but if I try to 'make' her nap iyswim in the afternoon then it's no go and cue loads of screaming.

I think I need to persevere with the nap schedule but as yellow butterfly said I am not sure how to get going or stick to it once the screaming starts...

Morning,

Angeldog, you mention muslins as comforters.

My DD hasn't had them but I did .

My mum dyed them in rainbow colours (they were used as nappies first, yuk) and I used them for years and years (think I was 11 before they could be wrestled from me).

Apparently I had them from the day I was born as I did not like dummies.

I loved them so much.

I have given DD muslin to comfort with twice. When she had the V&D bug a month ago, she vomited all over her comforters and needed something while they were in the wash so I gave her a muslin for the night and she was happy enough. Although there were serious smiles for her comforters the next day when they were back in the cot clean.

X

Welcome, Jcee.

DS went to sleep in the pram today!

That's the first time since 5+ weeks ago. It took a bumpy field, a muslin over the front (thanks, Littlestlass!) and frequent re-insertion of a dummy. I kept the pram moving and he slept for an hour and a half. I thought of you, Dr Doobs as I was pushing him around!

Now I'm keeping him up for longer at a time, feeding to sleep (well, to a state of drowsiness at least) seems to be working again. The trouble is it's too tempting to keep using it - it seems to work at least some of the time - but I would like to get to the point where DH can get him off for naps too.

yellowbutterfly, my dd (15 weeks) is waking crying a couple of times a night due to constipation and farts poor little thing! The "straining" (sorry TMI, I know!) really upsets her and she needs cuddles to settle her off again and that doesn't always work!
This on top of waking a few times a night for feeds is really exhausting me... I wish there was some way I could help her. Sometimes she seems to realy be in pain with discomfort and distressed. I wonder if they will grow out of it???

Jcee welcome, good to have you on board!!

lolalotta- horrible isn't it , the blessed farts and poos .
It is easy for me to say now as we've had a good couple of days and my sleep levels are not too bad.(catch me in a couple of days and it may be a different story).

I have decided DD just needs comfort on those situations. She settles herself, she loves her cot, she tries to sleep but the bloody farts stop her. I have found skandi1 advice really supportive, as its exactly what i'm trying to do, i can't leave DD as whenever i do invariably she has been sick, has bad farts, poo or has pulled the covers over her head !!! She does really try to sleep.

The only things i have found have helped in those situation where the farts etc have woken her and upset her are cuddles, some cool boiled water (this seems to bring wind up really well) but they are not foolproof and you just have to play it by ear. What I am trying to do (as i know things will get better in the fart/poo department) is to not get into bad habits, i'e as soon as she is settled again she goes into her cot.

Mind you on saying that I may be moaning again tomorrow .

We are now using lactulose daily and it does seem that when she poos ok she sleeps better.

Sometimes if she is really upset and we have to get her out, as she is sobbing a tummy massage has helped, but this has only been the case a couple of times. Think is has probably been more or an attention/distraction thing IYSWIM.

AngelDog congratulation on the sleeping in pram

We have been going for walks in the lovely sunshine too, DD not sleeping yet (head wobbles a lot over bumps), but really chilling, closed her eyes a couple of times and tried. Think as she gets bigger will be very used to pram and sleep well in it .

Welcome Jcee and lolalotta AngelDog fantastic .

I, too, am feeding to sleep at the moment - for naps and bed (DD is usually awake when I put her down for the night though and settles herself). Naps are a completely different story. She resists any attempt to get her to sleep and most attempts result in a full on screaming fit. She will then get hungry but fall asleep while feeding as she is so shattered, bless her. If I try to move her though she wakes up and no amount of rocking, shushing, patting etc gets her back to sleep so she is still surviving on just 2 30 minute naps a day, usually on my lap after a feed or in the pram.

Jcee was going to suggest it might be a growth spurt but probably not if it has been going on for 2 weeks.

Oh crap - DD awake and crying brb

OK got DD calmed down but not asleep - hope this not a sign of things to come

I do most of the babycare but lovely DH will cook tea while I feed and get DD to bed. He also does the night nappy changes, which gives me an extra 5 mins in bed - oh how I miss that .

Yes YellowButterfly, I agree that weekends are more difficult in some ways. We tend to go out more on a weekend so keeping to a routine will be much more difficult, especially if it is not fully established - not sure how best to manage this .

Tried giving DD a dummy today - she hasn't been interested before. It stopped her shouting but didn't get her to sleep and she eventually spat it out in favour of her thumb .

Here's hoping she behaves in baby massage tomorrow or we might get kicked out for waking all the other babies

Angeldog - that's great news!

PDog - I think it might have been a growth spurt initially but I wonder now if it's habit as she wakes up at roughly the same times every night.

Having said that, last night she was only up twice and once I'd put her dummy back in, she was easily shushed back to sleep in a couple of minutes. Then she gave me a fright....

I woke up and was feeling all smug as I felt quite refreshed until I looked at the clock and realised it was 8am and started panicking as normally she's up well before this time. So I rushed into her room where I found her fast asleep and with all my panic promptly woke her up!

Am going to try watch her sleepy signals today to try and figure out a nap routine to start next week once the weekend is out of the way, as others have said, I find routine then much more difficult....

Pdog I think you are right it's because we tend to do more stuff and go out on a weekend - I'd always secretly blamed the routine going to pot on DP being around as he is convinced he knows best

AngelDog Yay for you! So happy that the muslin thing worked for you - I have actually passed on some motherly advice that worked! Was feeling like completely crap incompetant mother yesterday so that makes me

In news from the Littlestlass household, DD has just gone down for a sleep with no crying! I swear DD manages to time this just when I'm at my lowest to give me a confidence boost.

Monday night I was completely bawling my eyes out because I'd been feeding her to sleep for hours and it wasn't working and was getting upset because I couldn't think of a day when I wouldn't have to feed her to sleep - this is a baby who carried on sucking for 2 hours on Monday and still didn't nod off. And then Tuesday she screamed most of the day (lack of sleep I assume) - cried if I fed her, cried if I didn't, woke up crying after every nap and had at least 25 minutes of screaming before every nap. Can't believe she's just done this! Now to see if it lasts longer that 45 minutes

Now she seems to be getting better at staying awake for longer than an hour, I might see about the routine. Will have to see if DP agrees otherwise the weekends will be a nightmare though.

Wow, Littlestlass, that is fab. Let's hope it happens again. So glad that you have something to make you feel a bit better. It's easy for it to get to you, isn't it?

Just out of interest, what happens if she stays awake for longer than an hour?

I used to think that DS could only stay awake for 45 mins but then I discovered that it was more like an hour and a half. But sometimes it seems to be about an hour, although today he was up for 3 hours apart from 5 seconds dropping off feeding. They are so unpredictable, aren't they?

Yesterday he went from drowsy straight to asleep in his cot during the day which he's never done before. I got all excited, but then at 4am he couldn't get himself from drowsy to asleep, and he is usually much better at doing it at night. This morning he managed to go from drowsy to absolutely wide awake. I think we still have progress to make.

My theory is that learning how to go to sleep on their own is a developmental thing, like learning to walk, and that they'll get there when they're ready. I've no idea if that's true, but it helps me feel I've got something to look forward to

Might try the pram again later...

yellowbutterfly, you are so right about how you feel being so dependent on how the last couple of days (or hours) have gone!