'Challenging' 3 month olds - come and join me!

[AngelDog]

There seem to be rather a lot of us with 3 month old (ish) babies repeatedly crossing paths on the Sleep threads at the moment. Any of you care to join me to moan / swap suggestions?

I know we have sleep fighters, non-nappers, catnappers, struggling to settle at night and bedtime battles out there, so I'd love to hear how things are going and what's working for you. I shan't name names in case you don't want to join in, but I think at least some of you know who you are!

I'll start: DS is nearly 13 weeks, gets overtired very easily, and needs an incredible amount of sleep day and night, or else he gets chronically overtired. During the day he'll pretty much only go to sleep in the sling, although at night he'll usually feed to sleep. I can rarely put him down in his cot before he's asleep, though, as he will then kick off. Leaving him to it is pointless as he'll lie there happily awake for 3 hours, before eventually conking out (and then only with help from me), and will wake up just 10 mins later. Normally he is only awake for 30-45 minutes before he is yawning and tired. He doesn't sleep in the car, baby swing, bouncy chair or pram (although I'm going to give this another try soon), and will not sleep if he's able to see anything at all.

I'd be especially interested to hear from those of you whose babies fight sleep - how do you manage to get them off?

Fhutts, glad that bedtimes are improving. to hear about the PND - depression is a horrible condition to suffer from.

DS takes quite a bit of ssh/patting or stroking to resettle him in the half hour or so after he goes to bed. However, I've noticed that over the last couple of weeks, he needs to be resettled less often and it's quicker each time. I think that's because he's gradually getting better at settling himself. I would guess that perhaps your DD crashed out with exhaustion before, whereas now maybe she's learning to go to sleep on her own? Hopefully resettling will get easier for her too.

Littlestlass, I hope the nights improve again. The No-Cry Nap Solution which I'm currently reading has some suggestion for extending long naps - don't know if you've read it, but I'll post some of the suggestions once I've read them in case they help anyone. (I read the Millpond sleep clinic book this morning and have a 'Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child' to read next - what an exciting life I lead!

Lots of people have recommended baby massage to me as a good way of helping DS relax better and so perhaps find it easier to sleep. Could you go along and take the sling so that if necessary you could try to have DD sleep in that? Although you wouldn't be actually doing the massage then, you might lean some helpful techniques to try on her at other times.

Dr Doobs, thanks for the swaddling link. PDog, I just ordered myself a new swaddle blanket too. Hope it arrives soon - he got out of his old one twice last night, which always wakes him up.

I've had some progress on naps. DS slept in the car on Saturday - first time for 6 weeks.

He's also been (eventually) going off in the cot at least some of the time. The key to it all seems to be (a) timing (b) often feeding him to a state of drowsiness and (c) a dummy, although he only takes the dummy if I've got the timing right (and I often have to keep putting it back in until the timing is right).

After waking after 45 mins nap at lunchtime I tried leaving him to see if he'd go back to sleep but he was crying lots. I took him downstairs to feed, and he got drowsy. I then spent the next hour trying to persuade him to go to sleep in his cot, which I managed in the end. He too clearly wants a longer lunchtime nap, but just can't quite manage to stay asleep. He has been tired & grumpy over the last few days, and has started waking with a huge poo at 5.30am instead of waking at 7.

Thanks Littlestlass & Angeldog - yeah PND is the pits but with a little help from some miracle tablets I feel so much better, not how I imagined being a mum to be, feeling like I did (do still on some days) but if I have to have medical help then so be it. DD is the most important thing and if I am fixed then she should benefit at the end of the day.

Yellowbutterfly - I do hope your DH has gotten home to help by now. Re reflux & constipation, have you tried Cow & Gate Comfort milk? I have it prescribed by my GP/Paed and so far she has not suffered constipation - she has been on it since she was diagnoised severe reflux at 5 wks. She won't take water, my HV suggested fennel tea in between feeds, apparently you can get some sort of granules to put in water. I intend to use some as soon as I come back to the UK although not sure yet where to get it from!

DrDoobs - thanks for the swaddling link - looks interesting and I'll give it a go but not convinced my DD will be as cooperative and lie as still as the baby in the pic

Littlestlass - glad the HV visit went ok although I do agree with skandi1 HVs are useless - I have yet to get any useful info from my HV...I've learnt more from threads like this! No advice I'm afraid but I can empathise as DD kept me up for most of last night and today has been rotten - sleeplessness makes everything so much harder

AngelDog - wow all those books, where do you find the time...I can barely read a newspaper cover to cover these days...

I'd definitely be interested in the suggestions from the book to extend nap times. DD is still on 45 minutes and no more and I cannot get her to go any longer or back to sleep once she's woken up.

Fhutts - sorry to hear about your PND but hope you are doing ok.

I have tried fennel and it works. I used fennel teabags - I don't know where you live but supermarkets sell them over here as well as health food shops. At night put a fennel tea bag in a sterile bottle, pour over boiling water, close and leave to brew. Give baby a teaspoon of the tea before each feed ? I kept bottle in fridge all day - or if you are breastfeeding drink the tea yourself.

You can also make the 'tea' by steeping fennel seeds in boiling water for a few hours, but teabags seem much less hassle to me, but I'm a bit lazy .

Fhutts glad to hear you are feeling a bit better. My DD has been drooling with red cheeks for quite a few weeks now but no sign of any teeth. HV says they can have symptoms for a few months before they come through.

Littletlass we started baby massage last week. I, too, was worried about going because DD is just so loud. Luckily, the timings fit OK and although she was tired, she didn't cry. She loves being around other babies so was far too busy looking around at everyone else to cry. One baby was jabbering all the way through and another was crying and needed feeding the whole session so I don't think anyone would be bothered if your DD was a bit grisly. If we have somewhere to go, I try to go a bit earlier in the hope she will sleep in the car/pram on the way.

I've got the No Cry book too and from what I can remember (it is upstairs), she talks about resettling your baby before they wake. I think you are suppose to time their sleep circle and then about 5 mins before the end when they start to stir, go and shush/pat or jiggle the mattress to get them into another sleep cycle. This means sitting in the room or just outside for the whole nap though and haven't the time or energy to try while DH is away. I have noticed this working in the pram though - the motion obviously helps her go off again - as she has slept for an hour and a half in there.

I think my DD is older than most of your DC (19 weeks this week) and things have got better each week so there is hope. Naps are still only 30 mins but at least she goes in her cot.

She is nearly over her cold now so only woke once last night. Not sure if all the waking was down to the cold or another growth spurt but I'm just glad it stopped.

From the book 'Teach your child to sleep' by the Millpond sleep clinic people:

"Keep a diary of your baby's nap schedule, taking note of the length of the nap.

If your baby wakes regularly after 30 mins, listen for signs of stirring or mumbles (a timer can be useful). Go into the room and stroke, pat or rock - whatever it takes - your baby back to sleep. In time, your baby should take longer naps without your help.

If you are following a sleep programme and your baby wakes prematurely from a nap, use the same procedure that you use to settle him at bedtime (eg controlled crying, gradual withdrawal etc).

If you have an older baby [I'm not sure how old is 'older'], try not responding at all when he wakes - he may take himself back to sleep.

Improvements can take a week or more. It is better to work on one nap at first. The lunchtime nap is ideal because it needs to be longer. If your baby is not asleep again within 45 minutes, abandon this nap to avoid upsetting the entire day's schedule."

Jcee, this amount of reading is unusual, but DS had a good cot-napping day yesterday and I'm trying to concentrate on making progress with his naps over the next couple of weeks so I'm trying to stay at home and try out some of the books' suggestions.

After sleeping 45 mins at lunchtime yesterday, DS was hungry, then very drowsy after feeding. I eventually got him back to sleep in his cot and he slept for an hour and three quarters! I did have to go and check to make sure he wasn't dead. In the end, I sat outside the bedroom door reading one of the sleep books just to make sure he was still okay.

Morning all! Am wondering if DDs current bizarre behaviour is down to 4 little words: four month growth spurt.

Have no idea how many times she woke up last night as lost count but she seems to have taken to eating all night and screaming/sleeping all day. During the day she happily feeds for 5-10 minutes then presumably everything slows down and she starts getting frustrated so we swap sides. Same thing on the other side so we swap again. Repeat forever! Unfortunately yesterday she decided that neither side was good enough after 25 minutes and when I explained to her that I only had two boobs, she bellowed at me!

It would be so much easier if she'd take a bottle. My DP was supposed to be having another go last weekend but didn't. Somehow unless I instigate things nothing gets down. Why are so many men seemingly unable to notice independantly that stuff needs doing? Sigh.

Anyhoo, thanks for all the baby massage reassurance from everyone. Am currently just too knackered to face going out (it's so going to be a pj day) but may try it when I get a bit more sleep. Am currently liable to burst into tears at any moment so best I do that in my living room, not on the bus . Needless to say, any thought of a routine is buggered.

fhutts Glad you're feeling less down. There's no shame in getting a little bit of help - your DD won't care either way and neither should you. Sounds like you're got the right attitude to the sleeping. I still haven't quite resigned myself to DD's sleep just sorting itself out though I am getting there. First step is ignoring all the bloody books - they sucessfully make me feel guilty and achieve nothing so I'm going to try and avoid reading them from now on.

skandi1 Thanks for the advice. TBH we've given up on the Gaviscon and I don't think anything will ever make me try it again! We were advised by the doctor to give cooled boiled water, but it didn't seem to help a great deal - eventually stuff just worked itself out. I have actually pretty much decided that DD doesn't have reflux anyway (or maybe did have it but is growing out of it) so am certainly not risking it.

AngelDog Congrats!! Isn't it worrying when they do actually sleep?

Anyway, I'm off for my first chocolate of the day - I'm going to need it...

Littlestlass, you managed till 9am without chocolate?? I was on my second lot by then...

I think there is a growth spurt at 4 months - certainly there were some discussions about 4 month sleep regression here and here. I did read something on someone's link saying that it was to do with brain development rather than an inability to sleep IYSWIM. I'll see if I can track it down.

This was a thread about these type of issues (they all sound remarkably familiar). The links someone gave about the 4 month spurt were here and here.

Hello all, survived the trauma of DH struggling to get back from Europe (just) I seriously don't know how single parents do it, it was hell. I take my hat of to them. I only just survives three days alone, I'm shattered.

On the sleep front. DD now takes 2 hours to settle at night .
Naps are really hit and miss. Only improvement is that she will now sleep in her pram, but not for long.

On saturday she slept for 2 hours!! but alas did not sleep sunday or yesterday.

We've been keeping a sleep record. I've also been reading up on sleep cycles etc, sometimes I think there is truth in it, sometimes not.

skandi1 glad i'm no the only one who had a terrible delivery. Thanks for the support on DD's reflux. DD had it really bad, wouldn't eat for 2 days last week as in so much pain and we were waiting for new meds to kick in. Doind better now, but the constipation continues, despite water/lactulose etc etc.

(Getting nervous about weaning, will help relfux but god knows about the constipation. DD now 22 weeks, but 17 corrected.)

Fhutts the PND will get better. I'm sure a huge element of it must be sleep deprivation, makes you feel rubbish.

AngleDog know exactly what you mean when they do actually sleep you miss them and think something is wrong, its crazy

Sorry to hear things are up and down for all of you. On the feeding for 10 mins littlestlass that may be all she needs. They do get more efficient about this time and can get very upset if you keep offering the boob. Does she arch her back away? With DD1 I used to think something was wrong as I couldn't believe it would change that quickly overnight. With DD2 I had no choice but to say ok , just feed for 10 mins (as too busy chasing after DD1) and she lasted just as long until the next feed. I think as well as more efficient they are also more easily distracted.

Re teething - I seem to remember that it does start about now but it's still ages before any teeth appear. I think chewing the hands is much because they now can - haven't had enough coordination before now. You can always use teething granules though if you feel you need to - one of those bizarre baby things that sounds useless but does actually seem to help.

AngelDog I meant going on to the hard stuff! I'd already had a chocolate brioche for breakfast (which DP and myself are needing to wean ourselves off before DD really realises what's going on otherwise she'll never eat a healthy breakfast!). After typing the last message I'd moved onto the Hotel Chocolat tasting box I have every 3 months - it miraculously turned up yesterday just when I needed it!

Oh and I have been reading about the 4 month growth spurt and am convinced that's whats going on. She's definately working on something as she again has been sleeping for a long time at naps. Am now in the bizarre situation of wondering how long I should let her sleep during the day in case that's keeping her up at night!!!

DrDoob Convinced that 10 minutes isn't all she wants because she cries if I take her off the boob as well - generally she settles on one side eventually (as with today) and will carry on for ages. Also, she always takes ages during the night. Maybe it's more comfort than food, but she's quite a skinny baby and I'd rather take whatever oportunity to get food into her. Might have to see about teething granules though...

Yellowbutterfly Have said the same about single parents to my DP - they're incredible doing this by themselves.

littlestlass - have a look at www.kellymom.com/ then if you haven't already. They have some good info and tips on fast / slow let down etc. And some stuff on 4month sleeping i think too.

Littlestlass, I'm going to have to apply similar dietary fixes before DS gets big enough to realise what's going on. Starting on the chocolate within 10 mins of finishing breakfast is not a habit I want him to get into.

DS has been a bit fussy feeding lately (but not bad enough to be the growth spurt). He feeds for a few minutes, then it's "Yes, I want some" / "No I don't" at about 3 second intervals. Just as I'm getting annoyed that it's interrupting my MN habit, he decides that he does want to feed after all and gets on with the business as usual.

Yellowbutterfly / Fhutts, according to the Millpond book, bedtimes battles may be due to: lack of a set bedtime and bedtime routine; over-tiredness; irregular or late daytime naps; or the inability to self-settle. Sounds about right - I'm frankly amazed that we've not all been having them all of the time up till now.

But on a more cheerful note, tonight I put DS to sleep without feeding him into a state of drowsiness first. . I fed him, then did nappy change / swaddle etc, rather than the other way round. I didn't think it would work, but thought I'd give it a try on the basis that I could always re-feed him again. I had to do lots of bouts of shush/patting, and administer a dummy a couple of times, but 45 minutes later he was asleep. I think he's suffering from insufficient daytime sleep - even though he woke up from his last nap at 5.45pm, he was yawning and wanting to go to bed within 15 mins.

I'm hoping that he won't wake quite so early this morning. Wake up time has been half an hour earlier each day for the last few days, so on the current trend it could be 4.45am tomorrow

Littlelass chocolate brioche for breakfast - now there's a thought . You are a girl after my own heart - Hotel Chocolat is my fav shop . Hope the growth spurt passes soon, DD's lasted about 4 days.

YellowButterfly my DD went through a phase of screaming for 2 hours when I put her down at night but it did pass and now she goes down fine. Know how you feel about doing things by yourself - I have 3 more nights before DH is home, assuming the ash has cleared by then of cause and then I can have some time off.

AngelDog sounds like things are getting better for you. DD also had a fussy eating stage. She had a very annoying cute habit of popping off every 30 seconds to smile at me. She is much quicker at feeding now but does get very distracted.

Well it's been quiet on here - is that because everyone's so busy, or just because we're knackered!?!?

DrDoobs Thanks for the tip - I have read the odd article on there, but have just had a proper read and found out all sorts of interesting things. Including that fussiness while feeding increases during growth spurts, which makes a lot of sense to me (she was the same at 6 weeks).

DD still being odd - has twice nodded off on me while feeding today (after at least 10 minutes of crying because she wasn't happy about something) and is now asleep in the pushchair without my having to cover her with a muslin. Last night she screamed solidly for an hour, I fed her again and then she slept for 5 hours

And I ran out chocolate brioche so was forced to have a wholewheat bagel for breakfast. It really wasn't the same.

How's everyone doing!?

Hi everyone hope you are all ok.
I am so pleased to be back in the UK now it is lovely to be with my family, even if it is only for a couple of weeks. We are stationed overseas so being away from family is really tough. Yellobutterfly - I agree with the hurrah for single parents I just don't know how they cope. i just hope my DH doesn't get deployed somewhere for months on end otherwise I shall be in serious trouble! Well done you for getting through those 3 days, maybe it helped being thrown in at the deep end? I think if I knew in advance I was going to be alone it would make me really anxious right up until I had to do it.

Well, DD slept for over an hour today in the car seat/pram, went to a golf club for a cup of tea with my Dad and was really nervous in case she kicked off upon waking (as she does when the car stops) but to my amazement she slept for over an hour, I celebrated with a huge teacake. I think it is fluke though as she had cranial oestopathy today and sometimes they sleep for ages (although she only went for just over an hour which is a positive lifetime for her during the day!)

Angeldog -I do have the Millpond book (somewhere probably hidden by DH along with the dreaded Gina) but she does have a regular bedtime routine albiet the times may change by half hour if she is either knackered (earlier) otherwise it is nearer 6.30ish if she is happy/not grizzling come 6pm (yeah right!). Admit that she has NO routine for daytime naps though despite my attempts. At night after putting her down she may need us to go up once or twice to pat chest and dummy (that works amazingly well just tapping the dummy lightly) and then she will drift off, don't have to do it for too long at a time but maybe 2 or 3 times over course of maybe half hour. Once she if off she is pretty good and normally sleeps through dream feed at 11.30 then may wake up at 4ish or not (last night was 6.45pm to 7am this morning)

Bloody hell I have rambled haven't I - sorry. Well, let us all see what tomorrow brings us all.

Family bag of malteasers with MY name on them

Sorry meant to say thank you to Jcee for the fennel tea tips, I too am incredibly lazy so will defo opt for bags!

Jcee & Skandi1 - you mentioned you had difficult delvieries - although mine wasn't difficult per se she was breech from practically day one and so c-section. I don't want to start anything or preach, however, I was such a sceptic when it came to cranial massage (really though it was just a bunch of crap) but when DD was so grumpy all the time I was desperate to try anything. I took her to a registered practitioner and she felt her head and told me that DD almost certainly had a lowgrade headache since birth,as well as other squished parts. I saw her for about 4 sessions and the improvement was staggering. I wanted to cram as many sessions in the last time I was in the Uk but she told me that you had to give time in between & that she had stopped what was causing the headaches - I thought that was good because she could have just taken my money but didn't. It is just a thought, it doesn't make them sleep of course but just thought it was worth mentioning - like I say I am not wanting to offend anyone who doesn't feel it is for them.

fhutts, glad you're enjoying yourself with family.

Littlestlass, a wholewheat bagel is not really a substitute for a chocolate brioche! I managed until 2.15pm before starting on the chocolate today - very unusual.

I've been too busy reading Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child to do much MNing. I've found it really helpful once I'd got over the guilt despair that the first section brought on. It appears that I had been sort of following some of his system without realising it. He's a fan of the cry-it-out method of sleep training (which I'm not), but there were some useful tips. I'll see if I can find the main points and post them in case they help anyone.

Things are definitely improving here. DS went to sleep yesterday again without being fed immediately beforehand. We've had further progress with cot naps - once yesterday and today he managed to sleep for an hour and a half .

Considering that until a week and a half ago, this baby would not nap at all unless in the sling, the improvement is stupendous!

I've been putting him to bed earlier at night (6-6.30 instead of 7) and trying to feed him right into unconsciousness when he wakes at 5am so that he doesn't want to get up for the day. It seems to be working so far - today he didn't 'properly' wake up until 8am!

To answer your question Littlestlass both - busy and knackered!

DH back tomorrow though so might have chance for a bit of time to myself, which will probably be spent doing glamourous things like cleaning the bathroom .

Had intended to try and get DD to take a longer nap this morning but she woke earlier than usual and I was still getting ready.

DD had a long nap in her pram late afternoon for about an hour. She only woke up about 45 mins before bathtime so I thought bedtime would be a nightmare but was loads better. She fed much better and I was able to put her down awake and leave her to settle herself. For the last few days the final feed has taken ages because she has been so sleepy. Will try and incorporate this into our nap schedule.

Littlestlass you have no need to worry about baby massage. DD spent the whole of yesterdays session happily squawking at the top of her voice and no-one could hear anything . She is VERY loud.

fhutts glad you managed to have a nice afternoon. Could really eat some malteasers now. It is not just the babycare I miss out on while DH is away - have no-one to get emergency chocolate supplies

Littlestlass - a bit of having a busy few days, being knackered and having to hunt out chocolate breakfast products since reading about them here...now fhutts has mentioned teacakes and malteasers....guess what will be on my shopping list today...this is doing my post baby diet no good at all...

fhutts - glad you had a nice afternoon with your family. Let me know how you get on with the fennel teabags - it really sorted DD out in a couple of days and made such a difference...

What you say about cranial massage is really interesting. We thought about it when DD was about 6 weeks and a total nightmare but DP was very skeptical about it but then things seemed to get better on their own so we didn't bother persuing it.

Angeldog sounds like you are making progress, well done...

I've had some success - we've had morning and early afternoon naps with no problems although still only 45 minutes in length. Nighttime is ok - she wakes once or twice but is usually quickly resettled with a shush/pat and popping the dummy back in.

From feverishly watching for sleepy signals I've realised that DD needs another nap at about 5 ish. Pdog - like you I thought it would make her a nightmare at bedtime but it's actually making her much better - no more screaming by 7pm and she is much happier at bathtime and goes down much quicker at bedtime.

Yesterday afternoon DD was at MIL's and slept in the afternoon at 2 and 5, so it looks like my routine is starting to stick which has given me a huge boost to carry on, just need to extend the naptimes now

I'm so jeaslous of chocolate for breakfast - no chance of that here! even my secret stash of crunchy nut cornflakes has been discovered.

Had a lovely afternoon yesterday - girls at school and preschool, got DS to sleep for 2 hrs in pram by jiggling half way through which meant I could sit in the sun and read my book. Then watched desperate housewives on 4od while feeding him before starting the whole school pickup/early tea/swimming lessons/bedtime/nightclubbing run. (Well only clubbing for 2 hours at an Early Night club that runs here once a month from 7.30 to 11 but dancing was fab!).

Naps are starting to switch to shorter morning and longer lunch (but not today as DS is still napping and I'm MNing). Nights are still 2 wakes and then awake again at 5.30 at which point DS comes into bed with me and I doze with him on the boob to avoid getting up. Can't see a change until 6 months really (and am hoping it doesn't get worse during 4-5 months).

Well Done angeldog on the transition from slings - you must be chuffed. fhutts, yellowbutterfly and littlestlass* you are sounding chirpier too.

Enjoy the sunshine!

Morning all

Hope you have all had a lovely weekend enjoying the sunshine.

News from the Pdog house is good and bad. Good in that DH is home so have a bit of help , bad that DD has been a total PITA all weekend .

Don't know if this is a reaction to DH coming home or the sleep regression/growth spurt that AngelDog posted some links to above, but she seems to have forgotten everything I've spent the last 2 weeks teaching her. Won't sleep in her cot, won't settle herself at night, wakes up 4 to 5 times a night and can't seem to settle herself back to sleep anymore.

I'm shattered. It has taken 2 hours to get her to sleep, then she sleeps for about 6 hours but then wakes up every hour after this. Sometimes she needs feeding but mostly she just can't settle herself - crying with her eyes closed and have to pat/shush her. She is also very windy, which often wakes her up.

Hope the rest of you are having an easier time.

Hello another request to join...will read the history to steal some tips but here we have son who is 12 weeks (7 weeks adjusted - but way confused as to how much impact that actually has).
Still feeding (breast) every 3 hours (was every 2 hours last week!), if we're lucky will do one sleep at night for 4 hours and then either up every hour or just wide awake and screaming the moment his sleeping body touches the cot...spent 3 hours trying to get him to sleep in his cot last night.
Suffering rather with wind, not a clue if we're burping the poor soul properly.
The one thing he will sleep in is this Fisherprice swing seat....I know so bad..makes me seasick to look at him lurching from side to side.
We do nap during the day but only in sling (no napping for me then) or out in buggy (again no napping for me) or if I'm lucky 45 mins in cot during the day (no point me trying to nap)

sdotg (2 hours sleep last night and yawning)

PDog, definitely sounds like the 4 month spurt / regression to me. I think being unable to settle themselves when they used to be able to go to sleep on their own is a feature of the 4 month thing. We've not hit it yet, but I'm braced ready!

sdotg, welcome. I sympathise on the no daytime napping thing - DS rarely does more than 45 mins at once. Have you tried co-sleeping so you can at least get a bit more rest at night?

Jcee, sounds positive!

fhutts, glad the medication is helping.

DS has lately been waking around midnight for a feed, but last night he slept till half four. I was rather engorged, but enjoyed the extra kip. Probably too much to hope it's the start of a new habit. And we're coming up to 4 months...

hi AngelDog thanks for greetings
he will co sleep for a bit but only if laid on my front, with me flat on my back, will feed in traditional co-sleep positions and sometimes fall asleep there but rather pukey and windy so one or the other will wake him up at some point...
I tend to give up and try this at around 5am
sdotg