A polite request that only people who believe in attachemnet parenting ish and self weaning join this thread please. I am just not up to being told I'm useless or a slave to my children

[IAmTheNewQueenOfMN]

Gecko is still waking at least 3 (sometime 6 and up times a night) to bf

Has anyone else had this?

she is 23 months

OP - it may be that bf signifies less to your dd than you believe. Of course you may well be right, please don't think I am assuming anything, but I'd just like to throw in my experience. I stopped bf when my dd was 22 months, and felt very anxious and sentimental about it, worried about whether she would feel upset etc. But in actual fact I just handed her a cup of milk one night and she never batted an eyelid. It was a bit of a shocker!

We still co-sleep and I bf until dd was 1 and a half. At night she kept wanting to feed more and more but when she fed she was crying and wriggling and punching - it was hurting me and her. I was all up for extended bfing if she wanted to go that way - but it was horrible for her and I. It felt like it was time to take a step away from bfing.

I was studying a couple of evenings a week at the time so she had experience of a bottle when I went to college and drank cows milk at breakfast time in a cup. So for a few nights in a row I tried hugging her really tenderly and giving her some cows milk in a bottle instead of breast milk... it seemed to fill her up more, yes, to begin with it was a little confusing but she was completely content and fell asleep. We both slept well. We still do the same thing today - but she has a special milk beaker now she is big.

I think both sides of the parenting methods arguements would be frowning at my technique. WHAT SHE IS IN YOUR BED??? WHAT YOU STOPPED BREASTFEEDING BEFORE 2YRS OLD??? But it worked. Maybe you will want to try it maybe not - but just to let you know - when you are in it (no sleep), it feels awful but I think you will find a way for you both to sleep well again - whatever it may be and whatever the experts say I think if it feels right it probably is right! Actually I am sure of it!

I too will never say no to a night time BF.
DS now 2.4, very occasionally wakes once a night these days, but did use to wake to nurse most nights before had all his teeth. He was in our room until 16 months and now if he wakes I bring him back to our bed for BF, sometimes letting him sleep there, sometimes carry him back to bed, which he usually accepts, or is asleep and has no choice! I used to not mention to others how often he fed at night, still in our room etc, but I'm so pleased with how things are going now, and our relationship that I have just started to tell my mum friends, yes I did it differently, and it was tough hearing about everyone else sleeping through/sleep training, but I'm really happy to have done things this way.
Now he sleeps well and if does wake settles so easily with a pat, cuddle or a bit of milk, my night time parenting approach didn't make a rod for own back forever! I love it that he calms immediately in my presence. I'd be haunted by the memories forever if I'd had got tough with him to the point of crying. Now I think he could wean at anytime, I try to cherish each BF whether day or night, that way I stay relaxed and can get back to sleep quickly. It was during periods where I questioned if was doing the right thing, and listening to others that I'd resent it, get frustrated and lie awake waiting for my wake up call. I don't think you'll regret it, and if you do want to cut down on night wakings, there are loving ways to do it. But you don't have to change a thing if you're happy/ not ready.

hundredtimes, it's so long ago now but remember "just" cuddling/holding and saying No Milk and sometimes lying with her to get her to sleep and yes, left her to cry a little sometimes.

Oh Queen, I am in your situation too. DS is having a beast of a time with molars, canines, sleep has been messed up since 5.5 mth when the gross motor explosion happened and never really recovered. He wakes 3-6 times a night, which doesn't really bother me, but comfort nursing does. I completely agree you can't night wean cold turkey with an older child who literally begs for milk and cries and thrashes and hits. I do disagree that they can't comprehend, though.

What I've been doing the past week is telling him (1) no more milk in his bed (side-car cot, I used to lie half in there and nurse him to sleep) and then while he nurses, to keep him from dropping off (disaster - gets refreshed then bedtime takes an hour or more), I talk to him and explain when the milk is gone, we're going to cuddle and then he's getting into his bed for sleep. He then tells me back if he out of habit asks to nurse, he'll then say "no more milk in my bed" and then ask to nurse either in my bed or on the couch. I tell him no more milk, the milk is sleeping too, but there will be lots of milk for him when he wakes up. I have resolved that night weaning can wait until this new bedtime regimen is established, and TBH I think I'm more interested in him doing a solo bedtime than in night weaning.

He was a bottle-refuser, but having been home for over a week twice over the holidays I pumped at work to relieve engorgement and he sucked it back and asked for more, so I'm now pumping for my toddler and it's fab!

oh they can comprehend what you are saying but they cant comprehend why you would suddenly take away their 'thing'

Well then isn't it your job as a mother to help them comprehend it Queenie?

If AP is about meeting the needs of your child and answering them as well as you can at various stages, then doesn't your child need to know how to sleep through the night without having his 'thing' to go back to sleep?

AP as Sears meant it isn't that different from basic good parenting is it? Being there, being flexible, being responsive, being available.

I mean how if the fact your child wakes six times a night means that the need she is showing you is that she can't sleep through the night? She doesn't have the skills to do that. She doesn't know how to go back to sleep once she's woken up, as we all wake up in our various stages of sleep. What if that's the need you are meant to be answering?

What stops you teaching her those skills?

I know you're tired, and I know you want sympathy and not solutions, but it's quite hard to sit on the sidelines sometimes and watch people - like RL friend - career down this cul de sac of exhaustion, saying like you did 'I have to do this for her, I can get through this' when all you're thinking is WHY?

But you don't have to answer this, because it's not meant to be an attack on your parenting, but I think it often seems like that to people who take up very entrenched positions on these things.

Queenie I don't know what you WANT from this thread really, but, you know, now I have a 3.5 year old who has been a nightmare to night-time parent, I can honestly say that it gives me an immense amount of satisfaction to know that she has never cried herself to sleep or cried out for comfort and not got it. (She always had / still has a dummy though, so her sucking needs are still there!) Some nights now she sleeps all night! In her own bed! Of her own volition! And I praise her a lot. And usually wake her by climbing into HER bed! But she knows she is always welcome to pitter-patter into our bed whenever she wants to. If you feel you are doing the right thing, just keep doing it. It's nicer in the longer run.

"If AP is about meeting the needs of your child and answering them as well as you can at various stages, then doesn't your child need to know how to sleep through the night without having his 'thing' to go back to sleep?"

no, not till they are ready to do that, 100
the idea is that we allow them all the intimacy and security they need NOW when they need it (bfing, bedsharing, sling wearing etc), so that they are not forced to reach independence before they are ready for it
you can teach any child to do without comfort and so on, but it won't necessarily be good for them or make them happier

At last, kindred spirits! My DD is 21 months, we partially co sleep- she starts off in her bed and comes into me sometime in the night.
She wakes for feeds 2-4 times in the night, which mostly I don't mind, but just before my period, during PMT, I have sudden flashes of resentment at having to feed at night. A couple of times i have held my pj top down and said "no more, just go to sleep now" and sometimes DD has just accepted and cuddled and gone to sleep (though not always)!
I tell very few people that she doesn't sleep through, I can't be bothered with people judging me.

But this is what I don't understand F&Z - but I think I am being semantic about it too. I think I was an AP parent tbh, by Sears definition at least. I think I still am - I mean he never specified sling wearing, extended bfing, co-sleeping as far as I know. I was and am very bonded, responsive, involved, all needs largely met - as well as I could, I hasten to add. Discipline etc attempted through encouragement, assistance, chat, mutual respect etc etc rather than naughty steps and charts.

Various dc at different points felt the need to get in our bed - and they did, and they still do - when they feel like it. No problem with that.

BUT - in this instance, or with RL friend - sorry OP - it would arguably make for a happier child if they are able to sleep through the night? No? It'd make for a happier mother too, I presume.

Independence doesn't mean No Comfort, sleeping through the night doesn't have to mean No Comfort either. I don't see the connection.

I am SORRY OP, because this isn't a conversation for this thread. I might start another one, but I don't want it to be a bun fight, or an aggressive thing to do - to start that thread - and I think it would become one. I'm genuinely interested in this - and also somewhat strangely concerned. I see women undertaking what is basically an incredibly intensive form of parenting with the belief that to suggest you might help your child to sleep through the night before they've worked out how to do themselves, equal an unhappy, frustrated, low confidence, undbonded child. When I know that isn't the case - and to be waking up six times a night because you are sure that to do any different would be an act of denial and would have damaging consequences is either masochistic or deluded.

For me it's like this. Your neighbour cuts his lawn, which he loves, with nail scissors. You watch him do this, it is careful, laborious and without doubt a labour of love. But my god, the man's back must hurt, and you wonder why he does this. You don't say anything. Then you wonder. Then you want to say 'wow, that takes some work, well done.' But also you think - his lawn doesn't look any different to mine, I wonder why he's doing this. I don't see the dividend. You want to say as you see him lying down on the floor, because his back hurts so much - 'would you like to try my lawn mower?' Look at my lawn - it's just as well kept as yours. Promise. It'd be okay to use a lawn mower, you know. It is allowed. Or shears? How about shears rather than nail scissors?'

Oh god. So basically all we can deduce from this analogy is that I'm a nosy neighbour.

I'll keep down on this side of the fence from now on, but unhappily I still think I'm right. [creosotes fence noisily emoticon]

Haven't read whole thread yet but ds is waking up and just wanted to say that although dd was only bf until 5.5 months she still woke at least once a night for milk until she was 2 and a bit. Then stopped with v little effort.

Will now try to read the rest if ds will let me (13 months and still bf several times at night)

Op, I am in the same boat Dd4 is 25mth and still no change. I Bfed 3 Dcs until the age of 2 and somehow they where ready when I decided to stop. DD4 seems to have other ideas...

yup, sears very much states bfing, sling wearing, and bedsharing
it's his basic principles, really

i think the problem is that if the way we are doing it is different to the way you have done it, then we can't justify our way being different (and sometimes harder) without appearing to criticise your way
and that isn't a conversation anyone wishes to be having, is it?
so how about agreeing to respect the differences and the effort involved in both ways
because i know this ap stuff gets your goat, 100, but we honestly think this way is better (for OUR families) and attempting to talk us out of it, repeatedly, like this, is almost kind of rude, imo
it's not the first time you;ve come across it, and people have explained how they feel about it, and why they do it, and i know you still don't agree, but, really, you don't have to

Agree. Let's accept differences. It doesn't really get my goat because it's different to what I did tbh. I think asking questions or challenging ideas about this or lots of parenting - unless people v. secure - never works, because people v. v. sensitive and just trying to do their best. I wouldn't be upset by you querying what I did, or criticizing it I promise. I like the conversations, I find them interesting.

Let's wait until dcs are 20 - we'll be able to have a sensible conversation about it then I suspect.

And OP I do apologize because I know you didn't want solutions or for anyone to ask questions or any of that, and you wanted support and sympathy that's all. Apols.

[leaves nail scissors]

That was a JOKE.

i think part of the problem is, as i said earlier, that people parenting this way get constantly criticised or questioned - usually with no respect or consideration
so are possibly bit touchy about even gentle questioning or even a robust discussion!
plus of course we are all grumpy because our children never ruddy sleep

oh AND am grumpy as i just realised on veg thread, because have paid babysitter yet ds2 fretful and needs walking round in sling
as he can't fall asleep or stay asleep by himself
so i am paying her to play with ds1 while i erm stand up and jig about
i intended to be sitting drinking tea
you may scoff now

go for a walk - by the time you get to Costa he might be asleep!

I wouldn't dream of scoffing. God you should have met ds1 at that age, I think he was born with velcro. I can JIG BIG TIME.

Lots of familiar faces here!

Ds will be 4yo in a few months. Still bf, comes into our bed in the middle of the night, and feeds maybe once at night, maybe once early morning. I am starting to feel enough is enough, and have been casually chatting to him during the day about how we could maybe try not to have milk at night any more. Franny you are so right about the fear! You could tell by the look in his little eyes that the thought of not having milk at night was not something he could deal with (yet). I am not being a martyr by not making him go cold turkey; I am just deciding that in our situation, I, as the adult, can put up with things for a little while longer, rather than put ds through a lot of upset. I still have faith that he will give up of his own accord. I can tell that milk is becoming less important to him as time goes on, although it is still a necessary part of his life for the time being.

OP - it is hard, and you go through phases where the night feeding bothers you more than others. You are not crazy for not wanting to take her comfort thing away from her. There aren't any solutions, you just have to keep trusting your instincts and doing what suits your family. And it really helps to talk to people in the same boat!

come here and jig
i need a break from jigging

great post as usual tatties
especially the bit where you agreed with me

I think I may be in love with franny

I wore her maternity clothes and we think the same
do you think my husband will mind

oh and last night I may have been ratty but it had nothing to do with being tired
I have run out of ad's
sorry to karl for being horrid

and 100m nothing you have said has upset me