No Cry Sleep Solution Success!!! (I hope...)

[kayjayel]

Anyone want to join me in trying to make the NCSS work? I have an optimistic feeling (foolish I know) it may work with DD (5 mths).

She looked like a promising sleeper for first 2 mths (4 or 5 hr chunks!), then it all went to pot and has been waking every 2 hrs (or 45 mins, or constantly feeding) since then really. Had DS (now 3) as a sleeper from hell and I really can't do that all over again.

So I'm sticking with just one thing - trying to get her to settle herself from wake to sleep in her cot the very gentle gradual NCSS way. So - the plan -

Current going to sleep: on the breast
Goal - going into cot sleepy then settling self to sleep.

What I'm doing: the repeated pulling off the breast at the end of the feed and getting her to settle with just a cuddle, with the aim of then being able to cuddle her then put her in cot sleepy.

So night 1: Fairly normal 2 hrly waking, but seemed a bit easier at going into cot
Night 2:
Bed 9pm (socialising, so late),
woke 9.45 (rocked to sleep, back in 2 mins),
woke 1.30 , fed, back in cot (bit wriggly and fussy but no crying),
woke 4am (fed, fussy, but no crying, back in cot)
woke 6.30am (fed, awake for day)

It felt great! Longest sleep was 3.45 hrs, went 4.45 between feeds. And first night she's spent months in the cot all night (usually I get too tired and pull her in with me). And despite being wriggly and having more 'awake' breathing when put back in the cot after a feed she didn't wake or call for me, which feels like progress.

Excuse the me, me, me, thread, but I want to keep a log, and remind myself to keep going. Does anyone else want to join?

Fabiabi - have you go an exercise ball or birthing ball? You can use it to get lo off in the sling by bouncing up and down. If starts to wake up just bounce a bit more.

We are going backwards! The first feed after bedtime is getting earlier and earlier - 9pm last night. Then up every 2.5 hours. .

Please please let it get better again! I think it may have something to do with he has got so distractible in the day and is making up for it at night. Or perhaps still hangover from his jabs on Tues? Please let there be a reason! I am starting to feel despairing.

No long naps yesterday either. I think I really need to get him to have an afternoon nap between 3-4 as he seems to sleep better when that happens, but it's so hit and miss with the timings of when he naps and how long for.

Oh well. Glad it seems to be improving a bit for everyone else. How was last night?

Tinier - I'm sorry you're having bad nights. Its hard to understand why, and trying to guess what's causing it (hunger, teeth, habit, age etc.?).

Gabster - does this mean you had our first NCSS sleep through success!? . Hope the night after wasn't too bad after all.

RaspberryBlower - yes, it sounds like we're having same 'success'. Are you doing NCSS stuff in the night as well? Do you try to put down awake(ish) after night feeds or just pull off early?

Hi Fabiabi -welcome! Your DD sounds like mine - great early sleeps (regularly 4 hrs, sometimes 5) which utterly disappeared at 4mths (what is it about 4 mths ). Are you going to do the pull off thing for all night feeds?

Currently for us - I'm very pleased with how I can pat and shush her to sleep, but she wakes 45 mins after first put down, then every hour until the first feed (like you Tiner, its getting earlier), then always wakes (sleeping with me) at 12,2 and 4, and up around 6.

I'm away next weekend for 4 nights (with the 2 kids on my own ) so I'm going to just stick with what I'm doing for now, but after I'm back I'm going to NCSS properly, and try to do what I've done for the first feed for the last ones. I really don't think I can manage to sort out naps, as well, but will have a try. This thread is definitely helping me, in RL people don't really seem to know what I'm trying, or see the point, or the tiny progress, and lots of people just keep saying try CC or wean her. Or some friends are just being much better than me at coping with sleep deprivation. Good luck to everyone with their nights/naps.

I usually try to pull off early so she's awake going back into the cot, but sometimes is more awake than others and one night last week it took me 2 and a half hours of patting to get her back off (1am-3.30am). Sometimes she seems to be asleep and I go and get back into bed and she wakes up. I have seen this called 'guard dog sleep' in another book. So, I think she has cottoned on to the fact that I leave her and fights the sleep. This shouldn't happen if you are co-sleeping of course.

2.5 hrs! In the night! I admire your patience/commitment! This is my downfall - I have no patience or calmness in the night. I'd worry that after 2 and a half hrs of patting she'd wake in 30 mins for a feed! That is a bit of an inspiration. Have had the sense to cancel the trip, so I think I may get a bit more determined with this. DD is currently starting to grumble after going in the cot fully awake, I'm going to go in and pat her to see what happens/how long this takes.

Wow everyone this seems like such a tricky road to take, I guess it's baby steps all the way. Our nights went quite downhill cos i teething i think, 1.5-2 hourly waking all night but on a couple of nights he's gone back to sleep really easily with just a touch on the back which should be good news but then the wakings are so frequent I just get frustrated that he still needs me to settle him, unreasonable I know. Have medisedded a couple of nights as I'm pretty sure he's crying from pain when he won't settle back down, do feel so guilty for doing it though, I wish they could just say "I'm teething, please give me drugs!!".

Question re the method for self-soothing - when do you go onto the next phase? I feel like we will be going in & settling him ourselves forever??

So good to know I'm not alone! Thanks everyone & well done for keeping up with it

ps kayjayel you may actually find it easier on your own - our ds slept thru for the first time 3 nites in a row when dh went away & then stopped when he came back!! I think you just do things slightly differently & all the decisions are down to you.

Wow raspberry, that is truly amazing, you really deserve a lovely sleepy baby very soon

I tried the pull off thing last night for the first settling, and it took ages - each time I thought she was asleep she woke again, which she never usually does when I feed her totally to sleep. I did it again for the next time, but just couldn't as the night went on - too tired. Think she woke about 6 times, with one 1.5 hour wide awake stretch.

It takes a long time doesn't it. I am very inspired by you all carrying on when it is so hard. I am going a bit mental, and I don't even have other kids to deal with!

I need advice on the nap thing too - do I try to get her to sleep in the cot, which takes ages of rocking and frustration, or do I walk with her in the sling? Thanks for the suggestion Rasberryblower, but no, I don't have a ball, and my flat is so tiny I can't really get one - there is no room at all.

Tinier - sorry to hear things are getting worse. But didn't you say your LO is about 4mo? Could it be the dreaded huge growth spurt. It can last for weeks! Would explain the increased night feeding and lack of sleep generally (my LO always refused to sleep during growth spurts). Also, easily distracted is typical at this age. Like the lady says - fill that daytime belly!!!!

Kayjayal - yes possibly I am first success. DS is definitely self settling quite reliable for naps and bed-time now. Although yesterday was bad, we managed to do a full lunch nap without assistance again today!!!!

Totally agree about RL and no-one understanding. My DH complains I am obsessed with DSs sleep. Well, at least I'm not alone! Love MN.

Fabiabi - Well done for keeping at it. Don't try and do everything at once. If you are finding it stressful give yourself a break and do at least one nap in the sling or whatever - I still often take DS out in the buggy for the morning nap as this is the most stressful for me ('cos he does not need it everyday).

This reminds me - must say when teaching to self-settle Pantley mentions getting them asleep in lots of diff places and ways - cannot recommend this enough as first time we did training used cot and then found DS WOULD NOT sleep anywhere else and I was completely trapped in the house! Now we have done things the Pantley way (instead of CC - woohoo) and DS slept in the car on holiday, goes off much quicker in the buggy, and even fell asleep in my arms on holiday too (everybody say ahhhhhhh).

sorry, long post!

Hi all, sorry for whingeing again. Yes apparently sleep regression is common at this age and goes on for weeks, I thought he had already had his growth spurt but it is probably all part of the same thing, so going to try to work hard on getting him to feed longer in the day. Last night not quite as bad and we didn't get up till 6, which was great, also managed to get him back to sleep (only for 15 minutes, but still a minor success!) with a pat at 3.45.

Still persisting with the pulling off with the two feeds I want to get rid of but not so much on the earlier one as I think he is probably genuinely hungry.

Totally agree about the RL thing, everyone else thinks I am obsessive and mental and it will sort itself out OR suggests 'just leaving him to cry' so this thread a real lifeline right now.

Napwise we always do at least one nap in the pram, would all go mad otherwise and feel that Pantley has given us licence to do so!

We had a normal night, took 30 mins to get her down, as I put her down more awake at first so she gurgled for ages before needing rocking. As usual, stirred at 45 mins, so I did pre-emptive patting and she didn't need picking up. So night was:
7pm down
7.40-8 patting, not picked up but stirred
10pm awake, rocked to sleep
11pm awake, fed, patted back into cot
1am awake, fed and into bed with me
3am fed
5am fed (needed patting and cuddling for about an hour)
7am awake.

I realised there's no way I'll manage every feed rocking her, so my new strategy is to do it for the first feed (back into cot) then rock her if she wakes before 2 hrs, then bed and my slack feeding if she stirs.

Not sure on 'progress'. It is very slow going. Its just I suppose the alternative is giving up hope or letting her cry, so no real alternatives! If i could book my parents in here for a week so in the day I could recover I would commit to it a bit more through the night, but its just not possible. But I might go for that if its no better after Christmas. I'm going to start fantastising about posting on here that she's only fed 2 times in the night! That might keep me going.

Hi,

Well in a way I had your fantasy night Kayjayel - she did only feed twice in the night, but in another way it was a complete nightmare.

I did the pull off thing on the bed time feed and again it took ages - I nearly gave up and wondered if I was doing it wrong, but we got there finally. Doesn't she say you'll need to do it 2-5 times or maybe more? Does anyone else take about 20?

Then I was stunned that she slept from then - 8.45 through to 11.45. I was so pleased. I fed her again and tried the pull off thing, and again it was taking forever, and then I suddenly got really stressed and felt like I was being attacked by these little hands and her little mouth was draining me, and that we were enemies and engaged in some battle or something. I got very upset and gave her to DH and sat on the loo and cried. Eventually I took her back shut my eyes and my brain and fed her off to sleep without worrying about any training thing. It was horific and frightening, and made me worried aboout post natal depression, and that I might hurt her.

However She eventually went back to sleep at 1.45 and only woke once more at about 4 and went through to 8.

So we had a great night for sleeping, but a terrible one for my head.

Then this morning I tried to get her to nap - she fell asleep in my arms after about 30 mins, then woke as soon as I put her down and there was no getting her back to sleep at all. Now she is happily playing and not seeming to have missed a nap at all.

Think the entire problem is mine not hers.

Sorry to go on, especially as I have had more sleep than in ages, and probably more than all of you, but I'm going a bit crazy and needed to get it all off my chest.

Fab that's great news re the sleep and don't worry about your own reaction - I often find that on those random night's that ds sleeps I don't and it's really frustrating!! please don't be disheartened or worried, it's sleep deprivation - also don't kid yourself that you've had a good amount of sleep, I don't think our emotions function properly unless we've had a unbroken nights for at least a week!!

We cheated last night and gave ds medised, he woke up loads in the evening & I can feel a fang coming through. Not sure if this is going to set him back though.

Kayjayel - good news about the start of the night - that's got to be the beginning of things falling into place hasn't it??

Tinier does he settle easily after a feed?

Gabster - are things still going well? Say yes!!

Hi Fabiabi, 15-20 times is quite normal for the pull off for us, but it IS decreasing and last night I think was down to 5-6.

It's awful to feel like you are battling with your baby isn't it? Don't worry, I'm sure it must be common to have moments like that, anxiety and despair are bound to make it happen, I don't think it necessarily means PND. I've certainly hit points like that but the feeling goes away again. I think it's related to panicking about having no control over your circumstances.

Took me an hour and a half to get DS to nap this morning! But then he slept peacefully for 2 hours, the whole thing is all over the place.

Gabster I have just looked at your photos - VERY cute!!

Fabi - I've had terrible feelings of powerlessness at times and also of guilt and that I must be doing it all wrong. I actually had an underactive thyroid and now they've got me sorted out with meds I can cope a lot better with the crap sleep. So, if it does persist it might not do any harm to mention it to the doc.

On the sleep front, slightly improved last night. Seems also to be sleeping slightly better at the beginning of the night and I managed to get her off fairly quickly every time she woke up. Never one to count my chickens though. I'm starting a proper sleep diary today as well.

Thank you for the support.

In the end I went out today, met a very relaxed friend and her baby and realised that if I chill out a bit on the naps front life will be a lot less stressful. She is such a happy little soul, even with her loony mummy.

Good luck for good sleeping tonight!

hi Fabiabi - your feelings sound completely normal to me (but then I'm also a loonymum ). I often feel an utter failure, or completely mad. Usually relates to the sleep thing - there's a reason they use it for torture! And in terms of your night, I'm glad it was better sleep-wise - hopefully more to come!

On our sleep front I'm having a pause - the baby has chicken pox, and I'm hoping DS has it too, which would explain his horrific behaviour. So she's generally quite merry, but was almost permanently attached to me last night, even when not feeding, so no hope on the sleep training. Hopefully it'll only be a few days then we can get back on track. How is everyone else doing?

Terrible, worse and worse, every two hours last night from the moment he went to sleep, and he has now been up since 5 and won't nap. Fortunately my mum is here today to give me a break as am knackered, miserable and despairing.

Okay, was seriously considering starting CC yesterday as am incredibly impatient and this is just taking toooooooooo long!! HOWEVER I bought him some rescue night - rescue remedy for night - which have checked & is fine to give to babies - gave him 2 drops & he slept from 7.30pm-2.30am HURRAH!! And when he woke he had a temperature so I'll let him off. No idea whether the rescue night is the answer or not but at least I got an undisturbed evening with dh & the tv!

How did everyone else get on?? Tinier, sorry to hear it seems to be getting worse - was the pull off times decreasing tho? Seemed as though that was improving a bit?? Have you thought about introducing a bit of baby rice maybe?? Fabi, Kayjayel, Raspberry, how's it going? Gabster please give us all some hope with a story of a great night!!

I'm not sure if my night was better or worse to be honest.

Bed 8pm (might start trying earlier as EP recommends, but with xmas perties coming up i'd like to be able to go to the beginings of some without too much disruption - thinking of our sanity!)

Woke 10.45 feed, bed after 1 hr

Woke 1.45 " "

Woke 4 " "

Not quite sure what happened here - too sleepy to remember

Up at 8

Not so bad really as it has been.

Nap this morning I decided to feed her to sleep so I'd be sure she'd rest, and I could too, but she wouldn't go down. Ended up rocking her till I got too tired, she was awake. Put her in bed where she happily lay and gurgled for about 25 mins, so I had a rest.

Not ideal, but I'm remaining calm today and trying to go with what she tells me she wants, rather than enforcing anything.

Have decided I'll resort to CC in the new year if all ease has failed - am really hoping it won't come to that as I'm not sure I'll be able to do it, but at least it makes me feel there is another resort rather than no sleep forever.

Have been trying to give formula at night, but only a tiny amount going in. Might try baby rice tonight - she'll be 5 months on Friday, wanted to wait till 6 and do baby led weaning, but if she's hungry....

Ladymoo what is this rescue night stuff - sounds fabulous. Kayjayel good luck with the Chicken Pox, I guess it is good to get it over with - I found a cold so stressful, my thoughts are with you. Tinierclanger so sorry things are so rough, have a good rest with your mum on duty. Its all going to get better soon...

Fabi, I don't know anything about baby-led weaning so I could be totally wrong but wouldn't this count as baby-led if she is waking up hungry in the night?? Sorry if I've got that wrong.

I don't know if using that rescue night was a total fluke or not - will let you know tomorrow! I got it from boots.

Also, ime (ds is 13months now) naps are off & on and don't seem to be related to how much sleep he gets at night - just how our day goes!! It's such a hard thing to do but once I got my head round the fact it's my problem rather than his (in my case! Not sayin you are the same!) I felt better.

Tinier, hope you're having a nice relaxing day

Fabi - I have to say that unfortunately weaning my dd has not made the slightest bit of difference to her sleep. In fact she has gone worse, but I don't think it's related. I think if you do get to the point of doing cc, it might not be as bad because you've done a bit of preparation first in trying to get her to settle herself?

For us last night was good in the sense that she was quite easy to settle (10 minutes each time) although she still woke up about 6 times. Also, there was one point where she whinged for a bit and went back to sleep. So here's hoping!

Hi all - sorry for absence. Had a horrible couple of days. Things I have discovered:

• I am in a constant horrible mood and tired not froom lack of sleep but because I am ill (dodgy flue and belly thing).

• DS can now self settle beautifully. (thank you Elizabeth Pantley).

• Now DS can self-settle, we cannot assist him back to sleep when he wakes - it is on his own or not at all. This means he no longer sleeps more than 1hr lunch-times.

• When DS sleeps well in the day it stuffs up his night sleep (maybe he was getting too much?).

• If DS sleeps well at night (just over 12hrs), he does not do good day naps.

• 45minutes walking round the woods in -2C and snow means mummy gets flue but DS still does not go to sleep.

Will report in more detail when feeling better

Oh, and Fabiani - weaning completely buggers up their sleep, heed RB's warning!