Xenophobia, homophonic, transphobia

[spstchmu]

Are you gonna do anything about it? Like, i know the line is that shoving the madness in the feminism board means it's not transphobia. And I know it's been done to death but I'm sick of it. It's not acceptable. Xenophobia, racism and homophobia also increasing.
And no. I won't leave. This is the biggest forum of its kind and it needs to represent and respect us all. And care that it's not.

Quite. Which is why the law and society separates certain things by sex not gender, and why trans people need to stick to correct sex places.

@BitOutOfPractice

So, you are sick of women talking about an issue that affects every area of their lives?

Right.

Well, I’m not going to apologise for thinking that a brand aimed primarily at female shoppers should be following the law and protecting women’s rights. Or that I look at what a political party’s stance on women’s rights is before casting my vote. It’s unfortunate you find that boring.

What you call transphobia many call common sense, the fact that a man can’t wake up one day and decide he is a woman because he is biologically a man is fact.

I defend my right to call this utter nonsense out.

I completely agree OP. I respect people’s gender critical beliefs. But so many threads are rife with transphobic generalisations about trans people having sexual fetishes, being mentally ill/traumatised, homophobic parents “transing” their kids, trans bodies being “damaged” etc. This is hate speech that goes way beyond a belief in biological sex. And EVEN MNHQ accepts that these blanket statements are transphobic because they get deleted if you report them.

And that’s before you even consider the attitude and tone of the FWR crew which is bullying, triumphalist and disrespectful. They are an unpleasant and radicalised group who seek to drown out anyone who chalke gets them.

It is also noticeable how this hateful attitude has opened the door for subtle and not-so-subtle expression of homophobic attitudes. And I completely agree that racism is also rife. For sure that’s a reflection of society but I suspect the expression of one set of intolerant views makes it more acceptable to express others.

As the parent of a trans person, this place really has become a hostile and hateful environment.

No mention of xenophobia, homophobia (except sarcasm at a typo), yet again it's all about trans people.

Do you find homophones confusing, OP?

@ExOptimist I think you'll find there was a thread last year where a poster had found out a new teacher at their DC school was a trans woman (mtf). The pitchforks were out.
I think it's sad the FWR gets full of trans issues and little is said about the pay gap or sexism in the workplace.

Always. It’s actually scary

I couldn't agree more.

Gender is total bollocks and it is impossible to change sex.

And therefore, in certain situations we segregate people by sex (not gender, because as you say, that's meaningless). And transwomen have not changed sex, so cannot use women's single sex spaces.

How is that transphobia? It's exactly what you said.

The thing is that it is opinion. My opinion on what makes a woman might be different to yours, even if we only focus on natal women. I might not believe that it is my breasts and vagina that make me a woman while you might believe that it is your anatomy that ultimately decides your gender. You might not even believe in the concept of gender as a separate entity to sex.

These are all opinions.

So trying to cajole and goad someone into persuading you to change your opinion on what makes a woman (or a man) isn't a real conversation and when it happens continually, you're just trolling in my view. Just accept that people have different opinions and move on. Nobody has to convince you that they are right to be allowed to post in peace or without being personally attacked.

There is no way to prove who is right and who is wrong. The idea that our biology is what deternines our identity as either men or women is one school of thought. But just one. It is all just opinions informed by different schools of academia.

At most, we can speak about our own self identity and what influences our choices about how we identify.

I agree with this. Far too much closing down of debate by designating certain things as unsayable. Better to let people say them and then to have a discussion. Of course, this does depend on people being willing to listen and consider changing their minds when told that their opinions run counter to the facts.

It is like that Gordon Brown moment. If you just dismiss someone as a bigot, you won't listen or think about why they hold their views. If you don't do that you can't counter argue or persuade.

I think what this thread highlights is the importance of not pandering to those who are quick to label any opinion they don't like as hate speech of unacceptably offensive. It simply works to shut down robust debate which is central to a democratic society. This is especially true when issues are complex and involve competing rights like the trans debate.

It is misogynistic to censor gender critical posters and it is transphobic to censor those who are in full support of the trans movement. Allow the debate to happen and in a democracy the general public will ultimately make the call on what the rules and laws should be. There has been a large shift in recent years due to more debates being held and people becoming more informed. We should try to resolve all issues like this, not shy away from them because we find them offensive.

It very much does matter if you are in prison and locked in a cell with a men who has conned the authorities that he is a woman. Or if you are the woman raped in a 'female' ward by a man, who was lied to by the NHS that there was no man there, they they had on CCTV raping you, who they lied to the police about for one whole year that it can not have happened, even though they had it on CCTV. Or a whole host of other situations where it really did matter.

Maybe it does not matter to you.

Yes it is.

The reason transphobia exists now is because homophobia is not acceptable anymore.

This thread has descended into all the transphobic haters putting the boot in.

And how much of that happens every year?

Whether you are male or female is not an opinion. It matters in law and in safeguarding and if you think men who say 'But I'm a woman too' should from that moment on be categoried as a woman, then I really don't know what to say.

How many times does it need to happen to be worth caring about?

Because it’s about what’s on mumsnet. We don’t see a lot of those things on mumsnet

This!

Stop trying to silence women's voices in one of the few forums allowing push back on a questionable ideology and report posts you consider to be phobic, but be prepared for a difference of opinion.

Well said.

There’s nothing cool about cheering on females to expose their buttocks to the world you know.

There is ageism every day and ablism on every discussion about benefits.

Maybe if people gave a shit about everything else, I’d believe their valiant efforts. But nine times out of ten they don’t.

How many raped women are acceptable to you?
Careful, your misogyny is showing again.