FWR

[MarsScarlet]

FYI: I've name changed for this to avoid a pile-on.

This post is about the overwhelming negativity and hostility with the FWR board that new posters and posters with a differing viewpoint face if they attempt to use the board.

There is a persistent group within the board that are, to put it simply, hateful towards others. Despite posting there on and off for more than 4 years, I have never felt welcome, despite not holding any particular extreme views or being abusive to others. Without exception, I am accused of being another poster, or a man, a TRA, or some kind of paid activist. This occurs again and again until I leave a thread in frustration.

I’ve seen this happen to many other new posters. Few return. Why would they? Such an acidic atmosphere doesn’t encourage healthy discussion. I’d just like to discuss women’s rights, but this board makes discussion impossible.

I’m not exactly sure what the answer is, except for @MNHQ to request the board to tone down the rhetoric a bit and back off on any new names they may see on the board. Let people engage with you rather than actively drive them away.

Honestly, @MarsScarlet it would really help if you could give an example of the sort of thing you mean.

Completely agree. I name change frequently and haven't experienced any personal hostility, but have had robust discussions and disagreements at times.

I do however get incredibly frustrated with posters who tell me that I'm doing feminism wrong. Because as an older person, I don't understand and just need to be kinder.

And don't forget that FWR is regularly targeted by bad faith posters, looking for screenshots to show what horrid bigots we all are.

This has been the case for many years. The issue of attitudes towards race on that board has been bought up before as well, I’ve certainly noticed an unfortunate overlap between posters who want to shut down any different viewpoints on the FWR board and posters dismissing racism, or being outright racist on some threads (including the black mumsnetters board of all places).

Its an uncomfortable board for many WOC due to some of the attitudes and some of the individuals being held in great admiration. I got accused of being a man and TRA for pointing out Tucker Carlson is not a great person and is not a hero of woman’s rights. And another time for not being a single issue voter in the election.

There are however also plenty of great posters on the board who are able to express their views in a debate without jumping on insults, and many well thought out posts in general, that’s the only thing that’s stopped me hiding it from active. I do have to sit on my hands not to respond sometimes though because I know how it will be met….

If FWR posters are going to the Black Mumsnetter board and being racist (about what?) I'm sure you can report them and MN will take a dim view on it @PinkFrogss

@themostspecialelfintheworkshop

So some people come on FWR and feel as if someone robustly challenging their point of view is 'negativity' and 'hostility' when really all it is is robust disagreement and women refusing to do female socialisation. Or in other words women not flattering and soothing and saying 'no' I don't agree pretty bluntly rather than the way they're expected to in real life by centering everyone else's feelings first. I personally feel that having your arse handed to you on FWR is a badge of honour that anyone who sticks around will get eventually. I certainly have. It teaches you to argue better and make sure you have your evidence to hand before you do.

Personal attacks, if they really are personal attacks, are already against talk guidelines and can be reported, MN will delete them and the poster will be suspended if they do it too many times. So just report the personal attacks.

And if you want women with more female socialisation, I'd probably go elsewhere. It's very rare the corner of the internet where women can speak freely and bluntly, whereas there are plenty of places they can't. I'd try reddit or Netmums if you don't like FWR.

Hmm. I love that word 'robust': used so often in these circumstances! It isn't 'robust' but 'antagonistic' and soul-destroying when you just wanted to talk about something.

Can 'robust debate' be done without alienating those more sensitive? And yes, I know it's just words on a screen - but those words on a screen can still affect other people. It's an excuse to say 'it's our space - we don't have to be feminine there.' Because that's what you're saying isn't it - you've given yourselves the permission to be more male in your response patterns.

All I'm requesting is a bit more politeness and less aggression towards new users. You can still speak freely otherwise. No one is shutting anyone down.

Thanks for your feedback, everyone. We do understand that FWR is a bit of a more 'robust' discussion space than some of the other boards, largely due to the nature of the debates there.

We will keep an eye out generally on the board. It's important that everyone feels welcome here and that while disagreement is fine, that it's done in a civil way.

Do remember that we have a specific set of guidelines covering discussions around sex and gender, as well as our general Talk guidelines so it might be worth having a look over those both if you aren't sure about what breaks the rules and what doesn't. But please do just hit the report button if you want us to take a look - it's much easier for us to step in at the time and when we can see a specific example of this sort of issue. We moderate pretty strictly according to those guidelines and we don't mind at all if people genuinely aren't sure about whether things are deletable or not. We're always happy to have a quick look.

This is irritating and often used against newcomers too: "we know everything, have lived everything over many decades - so don't bother".

Yes I and many other posters have, there was one particular plopper (a few years ago in fairness) who kept turning up and being reported, I’m not sure if she was banned but I haven’t seen her for awhile.

Anyone who frequented the BMN board a few years ago will probably understand what I am talking about.

It’s also certainly not just the FWR board that has an issue with racism on MN either.

Ah ok. I don't post on it or read it so I wouldn't know. I don't think it's fair to accuse a whole board based on one person a few years ago.

@PinkFrogss

Im not saying there isn't a problem with racism everywhere, of course there is. But without exact examples other than someone approving of something Tucker Carlson said it's difficult to know whether your objections are particularly reasonable in this case. Can you quote any exact posts?

I didn’t say it was just one person or a whole board. There have been other threads in the past about FWR and discussions on race.

I used one situation as an example but as I said in my original comment there is some unfortunate overlap between names I frequently see insulting people who disagree with them on FWR that also seem to be drawn to threads about race on other parts of the site, and I frequently see them dismissing racism.

I know I am not the only person that feels the FWR board can be an unwelcome place for a WOC.

you've given yourselves the permission to be more male in your response patterns

Sorry, whit?!

Thank you, @HebeMumsnet. I think the problem I'm having here relates to civility primarily. I'd like to use the FWR board but it's too hostile.

@PinkFrogss

Ok fair enough, but it's all a bit vague to be honest. FWR does seem to be vaguely smeared on a regular basis just because women aren't afraid to speak up.

So post interesting threads?

Coming here and attacking a board for not being fluffy? Really? Other boards are available. They do not all have to be right for you.

FWE can be robust. Given what many women face elsewhere, it is not surprising that they don't/won't take well to someone walzing in and basically "oh you mean girl should be kind"

Early on in the old days of the internet it was always recommended that newbies explore and read to get the feel of a place, and not to barge in and try to change the vibe. We would all do well to remember that

I’ve never seen that, in my opinion, and no one has ever said that. That is your interpretation. Hyperbole.

Edited to add - it’s interesting from my whole post that’s the bit you picked up on.

Many of the posts have been deleted and I’m not going to trawl through old threads to find examples of racism, or dismissals of racism - it’s not something I particularly enjoy reading so won’t go out of my way to seek it out.

One possible example that springs to mind is the Central Park woman that there has been a couple of threads on over the years. Not sure how good MN’s advanced search is but you might be able to search it out and find a couple of the threads. The most recent thread I remember reading was deleted for racism but I imagine previous threads remain.

I remember some good discussion on these threads from posters far more eloquent than I:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4877808-white-feminism?page=1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4531682-why-do-lots-of-black-women-still-feel-that-feminism-is-nit-for-them

Can 'robust debate' be done without alienating those more sensitive? And yes, I know it's just words on a screen - but those words on a screen can still affect other people. It's an excuse to say 'it's our space - we don't have to be feminine there.' Because that's what you're saying isn't it - you've given yourselves the permission to be more male in your response patterns.

Are you suggesting FWR posters should be more feminine?

@HebeMumsnet what is it that you would like posters to do to be ‘more welcoming’ or more ‘civil’?

As we haven’t had any examples it is a bit hard to know what you want exactly. If you want a handhold while you work out your views on topics others have already got pretty settled views on, then maybe reading some of the books on the topic or lurking and reading the threads might be more helpful?

I’m not saying that to try and be patronising by the way, but FWR isn’t really a bunny slope for gender identity debate, it’s pretty full on, so maybe you sort of have to get ‘in training’ first? Or you’re of course free to post as you wish, but it will feel like a baptism of fire if you haven’t spent a lot of time honing your position first.

I think for eg people are allowed to say they agree with Tucker Carlson if he says something they find interesting, and people are allowed to point out why they don't like him with reasons. If multiple people disagree with you, then yes it does feel like a pile on, but that's life. It's likely happened to most of us at some point, and certainly happens to GC women everywhere else on the internet.

But surely if someone goes into any discussion expecting to argue against facts, and have their argument accepted despite it not being backed up with facts, they're going to be disappointed if people who stick to the facts don't go along with them? That would be the case in any kind of discussion where it's possible to counter non-fact with fact, not just FWR discussions. Seems to me if you accept that bottom line you're far less likely to feel responses are personal.

Regarding the topic name "sex and gender" , it has always seemed bizarre to me that the tag should be intended to restrict content to a specified subset of feminist issues.
Feminism just is about sex and gender. It is about how, on the basis of our sex, we are subjected to and restricted by a set of constructed gender norms. And conversely it is also about how men are socialised, on the basis of their sex, into gender norms that facilitate abuse and restriction of women, as well as sometimes oppressing and confining men themselves.
So I can't think of any feminist discussion that could legitimately be taken out of the sex and gender topic and moved to feminist chat.

I'd also like to say that as someone who changes name a lot I always post as an 'outsider' in FWR and don't find it a hostile place to post. Sometimes, in trans-related discussions, I have posted against the grain of a thread (almost always in cases where I feel that named individuals are being discussed too harshly) and I have not been subjected to any fierceness or false accusations.

Actually, MN in general is such an astonishingly aggressive place these days that, on the whole, the FWR area seems less aggressive, not more.

This ^^

And this may or may not be the style of interaction that the OP has undertaken. However, all too often the 'hostility' is there from the very first post from a person who then declares that they have been insulted.

There has been posters, and this is a general comment, who act in a way that I clumsily describe as negative feedback farming. They come into a thread, they will admonish posters or make baseless inflammatory negative generalisations about MN or the board and then claim that they have been subject to some form of abuse after posters push back on that.

Or they post something that is factually incorrect or is evidenced to be incorrect and multiple people have explained this, out comes the accusation that they cannot express an alternative opinion, when that 'opinion' has been shown to be misinformation .

I agree, which is why I post virtually all my feminist posts on 'Sex and Gender', because I cannot see any part of feminism that isn't 'sex and gender'.

@Brefugee

Early on in the old days of the internet it was always recommended that newbies explore and read to get the feel of a place, and not to barge in and try to change the vibe. We would all do well to remember that

Thanks. Did you miss the part where I said I wasn't a newbie?