Why do lots of black women still feel that feminism is nit for them?

[SpringHasSprungYay]

Isn't it sad that in this day & age, so many black women still feel that feminism is a white woman's thing.
How can we make things better?

[SpringHasSprungYay]

Apologies for the typo. Should say not (not nit)!

[HumunaHey]

It's not just black women, it's many women of all races.

MN feminism has a lot to take credit for. You only need to read the attack on black women and faux confusion on some of the BM threads.

I personally also don't buy into the TWAW ideology, but some of the threads on here go beyond that and are just transphobic. Not the threads discusing/highlighting sex based rights, but others where there is pearl clutching at anything trans.

[2Rebecca]

Ask them. Non white women aren't a homogeneous group though. Most of the non white women in my area are descended first or 2nd gen from Pakistan. Their family is important and their society is patriarchal. I don't see it as my job to change this. They may need women's refuges if escaping abusive marriages. Gains that feminists of all colours make legally like stopping girls being taken abroad for marriage will help them

[SpringHasSprungYay]

@2Rebecca

Ask them. Non white women aren't a homogeneous group though. Most of the non white women in my area are descended first or 2nd gen from Pakistan. Their family is important and their society is patriarchal. I don't see it as my job to change this. They may need women's refuges if escaping abusive marriages. Gains that feminists of all colours make legally like stopping girls being taken abroad for marriage will help them

I am asking all women.

[MissyB1]

Might get flamed for this but I’m going to say it because it’s something I’ve found myself starting to think. Although I strongly suspect it’s mumsnet that’s colouring my opinion on this, especially some threads on black mumsnet section.
Some black women seem to see sneering at feminism as a way to express anger or frustration with white women. I also think some black women worry that being feminist might detract from fighting racism. So they see feminists as not being in their corner.
I have to say I haven’t come across this in real life though 🤔

[SamphirethePogoingStickerist]

FFS!

[MoonbeamSprinkles]

I've never seen any racism in FWR

Calling black women who are angry ‘uppity’ is pretty racist to be fair.

Uppity is a well known word used to put black people down when they speak out against racism.

A bit like how the word hysterical is used against all women.

[Onionpatch]

I cant speak for black women.

I can say from my white point of view, I dont think much thought is given to how racism affects women specifically. That's seen as tackling racism which I have seen posters say is not the sphere feminism. Ive seen people say its not up to women to solve racism in threads about black womens experience.

Well it should be. If you centre women then the female experience of racism should be a core issue. It is impacting hugely on women to the point of causing death so to have someone say its not feminism job to solve racism is shit really.

[MsGoodenough]

I teach mainly black African teenage girls. Most are what I would term as very feminist in their viewpoints, but there is also a feeling that feminism is 'not for the likes of us'. My interpretation, as an outsider, is that there a few different things going on. One is the fact that the main feminism they are taught about is is suffragettes, and they may know of famous feminists such as Germaine Greer, and it all appears very white. Another is that tackling racism is such a priority that they feel feminism isn't as important. There is also a fear that challenging black men on misogyny is some kind of race betrayal (Ijeoma Olowu talks about this eloquently in her book 'So you want to talk about race?- that she is accuse of betraying the race fight if she calls out black men on misogyny). Another is the American viewpoint seeping in that 'white feminism'is an arm of white supremacy. Books like 'Against White Feminism' are popular among the more 'right on' girls. I have read reviews of this book and find it very problematic and it doesn't translate at all to a UK context, but I can see its appeal to a young idealistic black girl struggling with how the world views her.

[CarmenThePanda]

But the OP can be read as if BW are the problem and it is ‘sad’ that we do not seem to be on board.

It’s complex when your fathers, sons, brothers, husbands bear the daily brunt of racism… intersectionality is a lived reality.

Look at how many threads on BM are visited by white MNers telling BW they are wrong.

I was LOL (in a bitter sort of way) at an AMA a couple of weeks ago, started by a MNer starting her Ramadan fast. An early post contained no questions at all, just a list of opinions about how Muslims ‘ought’ to organise Ramadan.

(Yes I know Islam isn’t a race… the relevance is who thinks they have the answers and it is ‘sad’ that others can’t see it).

There are loads of books.

www.amazon.co.uk/Longer-Talking-White-People-About/dp/1408870584?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

[roundtable]

Sneering and uppity. For fucks sake

Only a few posts in. That's good examples why.

I was debating whether to engage but I see how this will go. As per usual. Shame.

[PonyPatter44]

This is why intersectionality is such an important concept. Sex-based rights don't trump race-based rights, and vice versa. The rights of those undergoing gender reassignment (whether thats in their heads or they are going through active treatment) do NOT overrule the rights of women, or Muslims, or disabled people, or older people.

[Rightsraptor]

I've never heard the word 'uppity' used in the UK about black people fighting for their rights. I did used to hear it used about me, white as I am, by various family members when I passed the 11 plus all those years ago.

[SpringHasSprungYay]

@MsGoodenough

I teach mainly black African teenage girls. Most are what I would term as very feminist in their viewpoints, but there is also a feeling that feminism is 'not for the likes of us'. My interpretation, as an outsider, is that there a few different things going on. One is the fact that the main feminism they are taught about is is suffragettes, and they may know of famous feminists such as Germaine Greer, and it all appears very white. Another is that tackling racism is such a priority that they feel feminism isn't as important. There is also a fear that challenging black men on misogyny is some kind of race betrayal (Ijeoma Olowu talks about this eloquently in her book 'So you want to talk about race?- that she is accuse of betraying the race fight if she calls out black men on misogyny). Another is the American viewpoint seeping in that 'white feminism'is an arm of white supremacy. Books like 'Against White Feminism' are popular among the more 'right on' girls. I have read reviews of this book and find it very problematic and it doesn't translate at all to a UK context, but I can see its appeal to a young idealistic black girl struggling with how the world views her.

Thank you for the thoughtful post.

It does seem that there is a feeling in some areas that BW should have to choose to fight against racism or misogyny.

[AlexaShutUp]

Uppity?

[SpringHasSprungYay]

[quote CarmenThePanda]But the OP can be read as if BW are the problem and it is ‘sad’ that we do not seem to be on board.

It’s complex when your fathers, sons, brothers, husbands bear the daily brunt of racism… intersectionality is a lived reality.

Look at how many threads on BM are visited by white MNers telling BW they are wrong.

I was LOL (in a bitter sort of way) at an AMA a couple of weeks ago, started by a MNer starting her Ramadan fast. An early post contained no questions at all, just a list of opinions about how Muslims ‘ought’ to organise Ramadan.

(Yes I know Islam isn’t a race… the relevance is who thinks they have the answers and it is ‘sad’ that others can’t see it).

There are loads of books.

[[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Longer-Talking-White-People-About/dp/1408870584?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21]
Should we just not discuss the problem then?

[Antarcticant]

Reading the BMN board (as a non-intrusive 'lurker' if you are not black) gives an insight into this.

[MoonbeamSprinkles]

I've never heard the word 'uppity' used in the UK about black people fighting for their rights. I did used to hear it used about me, white as I am, by various family members when I passed the 11 plus all those years ago.

Ok so you’ve never heard it in a racist context but that doesn’t mean it isn’t used in that way.

It’s a good example of why a black woman might feel like the conversations here aren’t for them. It must be exhausting to have to explain why certain things are racist and be met with defensiveness.

It’s understandable why white women might not be as sensitive to race, I know that it’s something I have the luxury of not having to centre.
But I do think that white women can be blind to the complexities of race, for example saying to ring the police for sexual assault without having to think of the added layers of race and the police (and yes I am talking about the uk).

The culture on FWR is very sneery, it’s actually why I like it. It’s a place for women to speak without having to ‘be kind’ but I can see how this would be alienating and exhausting if you’re met with defensiveness when you’re trying to put your point across about race.

[SpringHasSprungYay]

@roundtable

Sneering and uppity. For fucks sake

Only a few posts in. That's good examples why.

I was debating whether to engage but I see how this will go. As per usual. Shame.

That comment has been reported.
Just because some people are out to offend doesn't mean we all are.

Thanks to those posters posting much more thoughtful replies here.

[SpringHasSprungYay]

@PonyPatter44

This is why intersectionality is such an important concept. Sex-based rights don't trump race-based rights, and vice versa. The rights of those undergoing gender reassignment (whether thats in their heads or they are going through active treatment) do NOT overrule the rights of women, or Muslims, or disabled people, or older people.

Yes!