MN needs a closer watch of FWR

[BodegaSushi]

There is a concerning growth of posts with racist undertones cropping up on these boards, all under the guise of being proudly 'anti-woke'.

Apparently diversity is 'woke' and worthy of derision.

This is the thread I'm referring to here.

Disney went woke now they're going broke www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4836570-disney-went-woke-now-theyre-going-broke

Mumsnet needs to looks at why that board draws such types of posts, and why posters feel so comfortable openly airing their racism.

What do we do if someone mistyped their comment and it wasn't actually racist after all?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Now you see the reason I know what many of these "activists" say, is that they post it on their own social media accounts in their own words. Are you implying they were hacked?

No. Some of them might have been influenced by what they've seen elsewhere, though. Some of them may not exist, ie. they're a bot.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Wonder what these "false claims" were? That men competing against women isn't fair? That men in women's contact sports puts women in danger? That women had to share a changing room with Lia Thomas where LT occasionally "accidentally" displayed LT's male genitals? That is testimony from some of the young women who were in the swimming team. Not sure how an Australian website would know better.

It's actually a reprint from a Luxembourg newspaper.

@Helleofabore

And by the way, those social media posts look very fucked up, yet we are being 'influenced' by them? I cannot decide at this point whether it is prejudice or whether it is lack of critical thinking that motivated an accusation that a UK feminist would be influenced to follow such fucked up social media content.

It's a reprint from a Luxembourg newspaper.

@MyLostSock

Could you please explain what the 'false claims' are that you believe this is referring to?

When you read this, did you go and look at what they might have been referring to in an attempt to ascertain the truth? Or did you think that because some of the rest had some kind of credibility that all of it was credible?

Did you look at the reports that they referred to? Because it is quite interesting that they don't link to them.

https://www.ilga-europe.org/sites/default/files/2023/full_annual_review.pdf

Here is one of them.

If you look at this one's section on the UK, you will see that they admit where the reported massive rise in hate crimes now reported against trans people comes under:

"The report attributes the rise in transphobic hate crimes in part to anti-trans media reporting. Galop’s 2022 Hate Crime Report echoed these numbers and the reasons behind them."

Rather very different from the rest of the article that you wish us to believe is influencing UK feminists, I think.

I would go and look at those false claims too. Maybe you believe the extreme trans activists claim that the science is not clear. But you really should work out why that is so and I would suggest that you read widely and actually read the studies they claim are not clear and make your own choice.

My advice, read everything with a view that there is a bias and go and do the leg work yourself rather than following other's points of view. Always read original sources and not the regurgitated versions. And while it takes a lot of time, if you making the claims you have here on this thread with such certainty, you need to make sure you actually understand what it is that you are repeating.

The people saying 'black birthing bodies' are not people on FWR, but actual people in positions of power in the USA

sorry. I didn’t make that clear.

Just to note whilst we are inadvertently back on the topic of 'anti-trans reporting'...the 'anti-trans hate crime' stats mainly include Misgendering, which has increased as a result of sustained requests from police departments to report 'anti-trans hate crime'. So that the stats can be recorded.

And the only link that can be made back to women who post in FWR is the insistence that we call men 'men'. Which is not a hate crime. It is not a crime. It is not the reason that 'anti-trans reporting' has increased.

And the issue in turn comes back to men. Which is discussed in the Sex and Gender board because that's where the people who wanted it put to be put. So it is no surprise that it is the main topic of discussion.

Thank you for answering.

No. You have not explained though what is 'anti-trans'. Because you see, anything that does not centre trans people has been described as 'anti-trans'.

Our discussions even pointing out conflicts in rights between males who seek access to the sex based rights needed by female people for our safety, dignity and our needs based on our sexed bodies is considered 'anti-trans'. Do you think that our discussions are 'anti-trans'?

Is that why you have mentioned this article as being relevant to FWR?

"As I said, Russian troll farms coordinating with right-wing pundits. They influence public opinion and press coverage."

Do you think that the feminist journalists in the UK are influenced by Russian troll farms?

Can you please post links to articles that you believe are being influenced by Russian troll farms? Because this is either a far fetched accusation or it is very concerning that Julie Bindel, Sonia Sodha and all those feminists are being influenced.

Posts against trans people, not just on MN, but all social media.

Often people mistake pro-women posts as anti-trans. Why would that happen if there wasn’t any confliction of rights? I and every other woman I know wishes no harm on anyone who is trans. What I care about is keeping men out of women-only spaces and women’s sports. That’s only “anti-trans” if you believe that TWAW, which I don’t. It’s entirely legal to believe it is impossible to change sex, just as it’s entirely legal to believe it is possible.

I am very anti-forced newspeak however. In the last couple of weeks Johns Hopkins has referred to lesbians as “non-men sexually attracted to other non-men”, and a US university lecturer failed a student for writing about biological women athletes instead of “non-trans female athletes”. I don’t need to be called cis, or a non-man, or a non-trans female, there’s already a word as old as time for me, and that’s woman. I mean, it’s hardly the same as genocide, but it is deeply disrespectful and dishonest.

Do you think it’s important to have a pro women / sex based rights board like FWR where women can post you cannot change sex?

You keep twisting. Your post is a perfect example of what the issues are. I clarified the point and yet here you are deliberately misconstruing, ridiculing, twisting and ensuring that this is not a safe space for ethnic women. You have bad faith written all over you.

Wrong.

My point about the telegraph was to go at least some way to demonstrate that it is definitely not the case that your classic, left leaning progressive made up the majority of the board, in direct response to someone claiming that was the case.

It is the very fact that bigoted, transphobic people have co-opted and completely twisted out of proportion any valid concern feminists may have with sex and gender discussions that is the absolute pinnacle of this issue to me. While a small percentage of you may be genuine in your opinions, there are many huge red flags that this "discussion" has moved far beyond a concern for the preservation of single sex spaces.

No one should be comfortable participating in a hate movement. Many of the posts on FWR are openly trans phobic. You may not feel they fit your definition of transphobia but the very process of reducing a trans person's existence down to "transgender ideology" as if it is possible to ascribe to being trans is in itself transphobic.

Bizarrely (or perhaps not) such open bigotry has found a comfortable home amongst other regressive groups that reject anyone who is not heteronormative and white. It's literally playing out in front of our eyes. And trust me, far from being "silenced", this discussion is being had. More and more people like me are seeing how awful it is, yet the anti trans movement is growing stronger each day, to the point where we have US politicians coming out and saying only the full eradication of "transgenderism".

Any acknowledgement of how persecuted anti trans activism is making trans people is dismissed as "oh shut up with your be kind" etc etc, hugely minimising the issue this entire demographic of people is facing.

The constant assertion that TWAW somehow means that people all pretend that a MTF trans person magically turns into a biological woman is an absolutely pathetic justification for already existing and well trodden prejudice.

The irony is I don't even agree with not preserving single sex spaces. The point is, "protecting women from trans people" is going many, many degrees further than actually achieving that goal, and it's all based on disingenuous bullshit. A deliberate and pervasive failure to treat human beings as such. And all the while, despite the rapid success of the TERF/GC rhetoric, the constant bemoaning that women are being "silenced" when actually all it is is other women like me, vehemently disagreeing with your point of view.

I point blank refuse to be part of a hate movement. It's completely shameful what this FWR board has become.

Any actually transphobic posts should be reported

They will be deleted and any repeat offenders are banned

The fact that you insist the place is a hotbed of transphobia whilst knowing the above says to me you are not in good faith

Tempered to start mass reporting on this thread

We don't act obtuse. I'm an ethnic woman, not stupid, do better.

So you can make mistakes but everyone else can't?

That's only the case if you trust the moderation, which I don't.

As said, this board has become a place where you can post a picture of a trans man in underwear to openly mock, but where a poster with a different view (supposedly welcomed on the board for "robust debate" [which just ends in cries of being silenced or thought policed when said poster isn't swayed]) is not allowed to use the word "cis" in an appropriate context without getting blanket deleted regardless of the content of their post.

If you see time and time again that outdated and inaccurate, offensive takes on what it is to be trans is allowed, then it's not hard to see why the faux naive, "oh there's no transphobia here love and if you do see any just report it it'll get deleted right quick" does not go down well.

If you are really trying to make us believe that we are influenced by abhorrent transphobic, homophobic and racist posts, I suggest that you actually go and read the board you are making these accusations about.

I would suggest that what you will find is a huge group of people discussing original source documents and data and dissecting it and analysing it.

I too would look further into the original post on this thread that you responded to that contained an accusation against the Libsoftiktok.

"the owner of LibsofTikTok, an out and out racist, homophobe, and transphobe encouraged death threats and bomb threats to the Children’s Hospital which threatened the lives of doctors and shut down services for all children."

Libsoftiktok posted content from a hospital and declared they were concerned by it. This poster declared that this was encouraging death threats. This is purely opinion from a group of people keen to make women speaking about their concerns responsible for the actions of people who lack impulse control and commit violence.

The same about the atrocious attack that poster referred to in Canada. That was a male student who committed horrendous acts.

Another quote from the one you agreed with.

"People are being whipped up to a frenzy of hysteria with Qanon style myths and lies about the evils of LGBTQ+ people"

Yes, some people are. There is just as many people who are being 'whipped up to a frenzy of hysteria' with misinformation about feminists! I have stood infront of extreme trans activists who sought to intimidate women to be silent, and I even tried to point out to them that what they were literally screaming at my and other woman standing in a line holding hands to prevent them coming into the group, was not true. Do you think they listened? Do you think they even cared that they had most things wrong and based on falsity?

Of course they didn't!

Hence, my recommendation to you to always check the original source material of any claim that you make.

No one should be comfortable participating in a hate movement. Many of the posts on FWR are openly trans phobic.

You need to be more precise. I genuinely don't believe that I am participating in a hate movement, or am transphobic. What is it I believe that is incorrect and transphobic?

Having been here for years it is far more frequently the people that come here to tell us how wrong we are that are disingenuous. Eg can't answer a straight question, can't even specify what they mean when they say "trans". Can't analyse their own statements for ambiguity or misinterpretation.

I don't know how you can see women being sacked from their jobs for having leaflets and saying that's not being silenced? Ok they are still physically able to talk and type but they are shown the massive consequences of doing so?

But your point about the Telegraph was wrong CandlelightGlow.

The posters you were referring to were from a longstanding Guardian forum - not the Telegraph at all. So your attempted point about "right wing" posters finding a comfortable home on FWR falls at the first hurdle - it's not true!

If you see time and time again that outdated and inaccurate, offensive takes on what it is to be trans

Genuine question @CandlelightGlow What is it to be trans, do you think? Wanting to change the sex of your body? (Ie gender dysphoria, often called outdated and not a requirement for being trans)? Believing that there are personality traits that "match" one (or neither) physical sex but this matching doesn't apply to you?

can you help me understand?

It is the very fact that bigoted, transphobic people have co-opted and completely twisted out of proportion any valid concern feminists may have with sex and gender discussions that is the absolute pinnacle of this issue to me.

Well this is where definitions would come in handy.

Is a belief that a woman's right to single sex spaces should override a transwoman's identity transphobic? To be clear what I mean by that is that I believe that trans people exist but I don't think that their identity should mean that I have to share spaces with male bodied people because I believe that in some instances sex should trump gender when it comes to safe spaces and sports for females. Is that dreadful transphobia? Or is it something else?

Wrong. Someone else has decided that it's a Guardian thread I'm referring to which is not the case.

Also, considering that there are now threads happily justifying how it's fine to be feminist and yet show open support for multiple different regressive, hard right groups and individuals, I don't really see how my point doesn't still stand.

The actively trolling and gas lighting of non white posters on this thread is also more than enough to demonstrate exactly the kind of people who post here.

Why don't you think that readers of the Telegraph have worthy opinions?

Honestly this is insane.

Can you link to the Telegraph thread you do mean?

Indeed, the so-called 'Telegraph group' first met on the Guardian forums, joined a small, privately-run, left leaning but male-dominated board when that closed, and are just the most recent set of feminists to choose to leave it when the misogyny got too deranged.

The level of dishonesty on this thread is remarkable.