MNHQ I hope you know there are some of us who fully agree with your new rules

[RealEstateNovelist]

HQ, I think your decision about terms to ban is completely appropriate and very much needed. I believe in referring to a person how that person wants to be referred, and respecting that choice. And I think if we cut our the false equivalencies and deliberate obtuseness, we can all understand the spirit of what you are trying to do. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for you to draft a policy and perhaps it may need some tweaking or explaining over time, but I think drawing some boundaries to ensure respectful dialogue is absolutely the right call.

I just worry that a lot of voices like mine aren’t heard on here because they just don’t have the time or energy for a fight. The “gender critical” crowd post so often about the same things over and over again that it may seem like they represent most or all of MN. But the truth is it’s just not worth arguing with them, as they immediately start hurling insults or acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with them is narrow-minded or stupid. They’re not going to convince me and vice versa and I don’t need to open myself up to derision and aggression. I get enough of that from my toddlers .

No doubt they will be here momentarily to start shouting me down, but I was hoping maybe the rest of us could have ONE thread to let HQ know where we stand without being drowned out by posters who are louder and more determined, but perhaps not larger in number, than everyone else.

I respectfully ask that in this one thread, the usual feminist board posters would keep quiet for a moment to let HQ hear the opinions of some others. Based on the tone of the discourse thus far I don’t have high hopes, but it would certainly make me respect them more if they would show some consideration to the rest of us.

Thank you in advance to anyone who is willing to let this happen.

The thing is that the hordes of people that pile into every trans thread on the site screaming about how we are all going to be raped to death by "a bloke in a dress" and how everyone who was born a man is always and forever a man and that makes them basically implicitly a rapist is also silencing women, yet everyone seems fine with them effectively silencing those people

I have read many many trans threads, I don't often post as I am not as eloquent as some, and many of the more reasoned posters (datum et al) have a much better way of articulating my views with what they say.

However, I am yet to see any of the above on any trans thread at all and believe that you @StormTreader are just trying to cause trouble with that statement.

*Datun, apologies.

The thing is that the hordes of people that pile into every trans thread on the site screaming about how we are all going to be raped to death by "a bloke in a dress" and how everyone who was born a man is always and forever a man and that makes them basically implicitly a rapist is also silencing women, yet everyone seems fine with them effectively silencing those people

No-one has said this on MN. Ever.

I don't understand why male people are getting 'special treatment'. I have seen so much more abuse against, for example, disabled people that is left to stand on here. Parents of disabled children are told that its better to let the abuse stand and they should 'educate' the people posting it...moron, and many other words such as that are not deleted either.

Disabled people, and parents of disabled children have been pointing this out for years and nothing. But male people start kicking off about being called male and everything changes in a second. Its ridiculous really. Expected in many places, but I did not expect it of MN.

Also TIM is not a slur. It is a word that encompassed all male people with a trans identity. Saying we have to refer to these people as transwomen is actually quite excluding, as many male trans people do not identify as women anyway.

I would say that TIM is not on a level with TERF. TERF is a slur, TIM is not. The equivalent would be 'tranny', which interestingly enough seems to be allowed as I have reported a few posts previously with that word and nothing has happened, and its not mentioned in the new guidelines either.

These new rules have surely got to be one of the least popular choices MN has ever made, for women anyway.

I am horrified that MN has now deleted a thread that quoted a woman (Lisa Muggeridge) speaking about women being silenced. I feel like I am in a parallel universe - we can no longer reference writers guilty of "wrong think"? There is discussion about the deletion here Another Twitter Ban along with a MN ban on quoting wrongspeak. Pass me the .

How do you know they are the least popular, JoanSummers? There are millions of participants on MN; the number who have objected constitute a minute proportion. Much more consternation was expressed about, for instance, about issues like hacking and trolling.

Bibesia
Joan was sharing her speculative opinion, not stating an objective fact. The clue is in the phrase "surely got to be".

I am horrified that MN has now deleted a thread that quoted a woman (Lisa Muggeridge) speaking about women being silenced. I feel like I am in a parallel universe - we can no longer reference writers guilty of "wrong think"? There is discussion about the deletion here Another Twitter Ban along with a MN ban on quoting wrongspeak. Pass me the gin.

This is unbelievable. Appalling censorship if we can't even link to external sites.

I think the world has gone a bit mad.

Agree that people can be referred to
as what they want and I respect it.

Agree, support and encourage those who feel they're born into the wrong body to make the changes needed, to make them happy.

But I want to also be me.,,.be myself, be comfortable. When people enforce their views on me.,,.i find that oppressive, bullying and dictating. That's the bit I disagree with strongly

thebewilderness, even speculative opinions need to be based on some sort of factual reality, otherwise they're utterly pointless.

But the truth is it’s just not worth arguing with them, as they immediately start hurling insults or acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with them is narrow-minded or stupid. They’re not going to convince me and vice versa and I don’t need to open myself up to derision and aggression. --I get enough of that from my toddlers

Personally I find it shocking that you can't discuss biology but you can insult anybody who doesn't think the way you think and this is allowed to stand. If the new rules are about respect, then this post should be deleted.

Another GC feminist who doesn't really post on the feminism boards checking in to disagree with the OP. I think the strength of feeling is more widespread than is obvious.

I mentioned it in passing to my (millennial, female) assistant at work and was surprised she agreed with me as we keep being told it is only middle aged female feminists who are GC. My other, male, middle aged colleague and his assistant, male, 30's are all in agreement on this.
We don't agree about much else to be honest!

Most people I speak about this with of all ages, female and male, think it's all a load of crap and are shocked to hear how far it's gone. Trans people who are not female are often perceived to be creepy but many people play pretend on their behalf because they feel sorry for them. Nobody really believes that a person can identify or become a different sex of person. Mostly they believe it's a mental health issue for which the treatment is everyone else pretending not to notice.

It is a load of astonishing crapola that I can't believe we have to discuss. As bewilderness said: most women aren't interested in a structured debate about whether we should become a sub catergory of our own sex and have fewer rights. We don't want to talk about it. We are being forced to.

I do think that if people can follow a thread in AIBU, Relationships, S&B etc, then they can follow a thread on FWR. Why would it be different?

Bibesia Thu 21-Jun-18 08:37:21 thebewilderness, even speculative opinions need to be based on some sort of factual reality, otherwise they're utterly pointless.

If you want to make that a violation of talk guidelines you will need to take it up with MNHQ. Until then your opinion of her opinion is equally pointless.

Bibesia loads of people have opinions which have no basis in fact. It seems to be part of be8ng human, take the Flat Earthers for instance, or believers in God, or people who think Colin Firth is sexy. You just have to deal with it when it comes up. Or ignore them.

The way that Reddit is formatted means that individual points of discussion usually flow in a way that can be easily followed, particularly for readers catching up with the thread rather than posting in real time. But MN ain't Reddit, so we have to work with what we have

I don't think I've ever posted on the feminism boards but I disagree with you and the new rules.

As a scientist the use of the term 'natal sex' is ridiculous

I object to being told what I can say and think (or even whether I can say and think at all)

I have great respect for those who fight for the rights of others

I've partly posted because you told me not to!!

BTW
despite that I'm totally respectful of calling people what they wish to be called

i've partly posted because you told me not to!!

Great start!

What is your field of science?

I don't really have anything to add to this the ad that hasn't been said. Probably by Datun. Probably here -

It's about being forced into submission by certain men, whether trans or not, on thepretencethat it's all about manners. Or respect.

But I agree that it's important that we speak up. ESPECIALLY when we're told to shut up.

So here I am. OP says she'll have less respect for Feminism if I post here. And I say
a. Who gives any kind of shit about how much respect for Feminism a misogynist has? and
b. Nice silencing tactic. Maybe that'll work for you somewhere where people are stupid.