MNHQ I hope you know there are some of us who fully agree with your new rules

[RealEstateNovelist]

HQ, I think your decision about terms to ban is completely appropriate and very much needed. I believe in referring to a person how that person wants to be referred, and respecting that choice. And I think if we cut our the false equivalencies and deliberate obtuseness, we can all understand the spirit of what you are trying to do. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for you to draft a policy and perhaps it may need some tweaking or explaining over time, but I think drawing some boundaries to ensure respectful dialogue is absolutely the right call.

I just worry that a lot of voices like mine aren’t heard on here because they just don’t have the time or energy for a fight. The “gender critical” crowd post so often about the same things over and over again that it may seem like they represent most or all of MN. But the truth is it’s just not worth arguing with them, as they immediately start hurling insults or acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with them is narrow-minded or stupid. They’re not going to convince me and vice versa and I don’t need to open myself up to derision and aggression. I get enough of that from my toddlers .

No doubt they will be here momentarily to start shouting me down, but I was hoping maybe the rest of us could have ONE thread to let HQ know where we stand without being drowned out by posters who are louder and more determined, but perhaps not larger in number, than everyone else.

I respectfully ask that in this one thread, the usual feminist board posters would keep quiet for a moment to let HQ hear the opinions of some others. Based on the tone of the discourse thus far I don’t have high hopes, but it would certainly make me respect them more if they would show some consideration to the rest of us.

Thank you in advance to anyone who is willing to let this happen.

Yeah i think so tiny

Your above post about terms you can and cannot use is accurate tiny.

But it isn't that simple. I was deleted yesterday twice on the same thread (so I'm presumably on my last "life" before suspension and possibly banning).

In one post I was critical of an ideology and in the other of an organization.

I was deleted twice but only received one notification of deletion and didn't realize until I went back up the thread about the 2nd deletion. In the email I received I was just told that a certain comment broke the guidelines. I do not understand why it broke the guidelines. I used no acronyms, no slurs, no bad language, was talking about an ideology and an organization (not a person specific or otherwise). I wasn't spamming or troll hunting and I wasn't being rude to a mod or another poster.

So, I'm just saying be careful if you don't want to be banned.

I respect the OP's position on this but I would like to ask if she thinks that ideologies and organizations are above criticism?

I suspect that if I said exactly the same things about a non trans ideology or organization that I would not be deleted.

I don't think that's OK but I understand that HQ must be under a great deal of pressure. I am and always have been grateful to them for their allowing us to discuss how women's rights are affected by transgenderism. It must be a right headache and take a lot of their time and energy.

But I do think it is a sad state of affairs when we cannot speak freely (with all the usual caveats about slurs, personal attack, etc) about an ideology.

I have read a great deal about this issue, both on and off MN, and discussed it at length with both trans and non-trans individuals,

Women= the non trans non men. Who could object to being defined by what you are not instead of what you are?

--

The GC are not the only true path of feminism.

Analysis of and dismantling the gender hierarchy is intrinsic to Feminism.
Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women. Feminism is not an "identity" people put on to justify their opinions and actions.
You can certainly argue in favor of rolling back women's rights and call yourself a feminist. Lots of people do here on Mumsnet. It is a good way to bait start an argument.

Hi Beachcomber,

Thanks for your feedback and we're really sorry if things haven't been communicated well enough.

Please do get in touch with us [email protected] and we can look into your particular case and find out what happened.

1. We believe in free speech and civil debate. So we will, for instance, allow people to discuss biology and scientific evidence.

1. We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.

1. Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.

1. Free speech by definition applies to all; for a debate to take place, opposing views which follow our Talk guidelines need to be tolerated, even if you disagree with them.

1. We won’t allow aggressive or rude behavior towards our moderation team.

For some reason the sweeping condemnations and generalities about women that are being made on this thread in violation of #3 are still here. It is as though women are so used to women being treated this way that we don't even realize it is a violation of talk guidelines.

Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated

Goodness youre right again

Didn't occur to me to report those things

Will do now

MN is fucked right now.

As the parent of a trans teen I'd just like to say thanks OP for being such a great trans ally to trans activists everywhere.
I'm sure they'll appreciate your support as they work to make the lives of people like my child harder every day.

Meanwhile, as the trans activists are succeeding in banning the very language needed to support people with actual dysphoria and campaigning to restrict the vital medical and mental health access needed to ensure the wellbeing of people like my child, gender critical feminists are the only ones fighting for the rights of dysphoric females whether they transition or not.

Thanks for saying that, Wappers. Other parents of trans kids have said the same, both here and on other sites. The blogger Gender Critical Dad says gender critical feminists were the only people who made any sense of what was happening to his child. I hope OP reads your comment and perhaps gives her head a wobble.

Wow, we don't get to demand that people stay away from FWR. I wish we could. Feminists there are so reasonable and calm. All this talk of hurling abuse is nonsense. Come over and have a look, everyone

Thanks for trying MNHQ.

It's quite mind boggling that the effort to be right on and progressive is actively contributing to the appropriation and marginalising of people who actually suffer from dysphoria, yet the concerns of actual trans people are being swept aside in this tide of mania.
How many trans people and family members supporting them have to post to make it clear that this is harming us before the self declared "allies" accept that their virtue signalling isn't helping? Dysphoria is real and yes, some of those who have it go on to transition socially and medically. Yet those people are now being abused by trans lobbyists. Old school transsexuals are not welcome in the trans community. My trans child was called a bigoted meat sock after being tricked into revealing that they wouldn't feel comfortable being penetrated by a female penis. At 12.
Why are people still fooling themselves that it's normal everyday people with dysphoria who are being supported by the trans lobby? It isn't. They hate females. They hate anyone who medically transitions. They hate people with dysphoria. They hate anyone who doesn't feel attracted to penises. They hate anyone who "passes".
Do go on and tell me that it's gender critical women doing all of the damage to trans people though.

Hi RivkaMumsnet.

Thanks for your post. I will contact HQ (again).

Great post, @wappersreturns. So sorry to hear that your DC had to go through that.

Thanks Choco, we've always found huge support here during our many struggles. There aren't many places we can feel supported any more so it's incredibly important to us.

wappers

I don’t know what a ‘meat sock’ is and a really don’t think I want to

As a lurker and infrequent poster on FWR, may I express my concerns that people like me are at risk of being silenced by the shiny new guidelines?

I don't have a feminist academic background and lack the breadth of knowledge to put my points as eloquently as posters more familiar with the language of this debate. I do however care passionately about the erosion of women's rights, and as a nurse for 30 years, I'm very clear about the anatomy & physiology.

I'm less confident about which terms are acceptable in a constantly chaniging conversation. Are last week's preferred labels going to become today's banhamner offences?

I am worried that I am now at risk of deletion because I don't have specialist knowledge and feel excluded. Mumsnet aren't hosting the debate if people like me don't feel able to participate.

What new rules??
Actually, never mind, I shall continue to use appropriate words while abstaining from personal attacks and being hurtful.

The transpeople I know in RL (and, btw, intersex people) do NOT feel represented by the extremes of transactivism.
As usual, it's not actually the subject matter (controversial as it is) but the extremists shouting down debate. Fanatism, the root of all evil IMO.

I don’t know what a ‘meat sock’ is and a really don’t think I want to

Just one of the many derogatory terms for female.

Parsnips and waiters, really interesting posts. Parsnips your post is particularly intriguing.

I am worried that I am now at risk of deletion because I don't have specialist knowledge and feel excluded.

That is bad/sad, parsn1ps. If it makes you feel any better, the rest of us keep second-guessing everything we type. It is not a nice environment.

That is bad/sad, parsn1ps. If it makes you feel any better, the rest of us keep second-guessing everything we type. It is not a nice environment.

I believe this is an important debate that belongs in the mainstream, reaching the widest possible audience. It mustn’t be an echo chamber in a corner of the internet. Yet if the language of the discourse is so tightly policed, the conversation becomes less accessible. Another round to the activists. Another barrier to ordinary women.

I hope that MNHQ takes this context into consideration.

Parsnips - I feel exactly the same which is one reason I rarely post. This is hardly going to help.

I agree. I'm a woman. I'm LGBT. I fully support my trans brothers and sisters.

Hi RealEstateNovelist, just wanted to lend your voice my support and to say I also appreciate the intent of MN's new rules.

Unlike you I simply can't stay out of the debate, although I'm not sure if it's because I'm extremely arrogant or extremely self-loathing!