MNHQ I hope you know there are some of us who fully agree with your new rules

[RealEstateNovelist]

HQ, I think your decision about terms to ban is completely appropriate and very much needed. I believe in referring to a person how that person wants to be referred, and respecting that choice. And I think if we cut our the false equivalencies and deliberate obtuseness, we can all understand the spirit of what you are trying to do. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for you to draft a policy and perhaps it may need some tweaking or explaining over time, but I think drawing some boundaries to ensure respectful dialogue is absolutely the right call.

I just worry that a lot of voices like mine aren’t heard on here because they just don’t have the time or energy for a fight. The “gender critical” crowd post so often about the same things over and over again that it may seem like they represent most or all of MN. But the truth is it’s just not worth arguing with them, as they immediately start hurling insults or acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with them is narrow-minded or stupid. They’re not going to convince me and vice versa and I don’t need to open myself up to derision and aggression. I get enough of that from my toddlers .

No doubt they will be here momentarily to start shouting me down, but I was hoping maybe the rest of us could have ONE thread to let HQ know where we stand without being drowned out by posters who are louder and more determined, but perhaps not larger in number, than everyone else.

I respectfully ask that in this one thread, the usual feminist board posters would keep quiet for a moment to let HQ hear the opinions of some others. Based on the tone of the discourse thus far I don’t have high hopes, but it would certainly make me respect them more if they would show some consideration to the rest of us.

Thank you in advance to anyone who is willing to let this happen.

Mucky: when you say 'I'm a woman' I don't know what you mean.

the next step becomes ‘just let them use the toilet they want’ then ‘just let them run in the race they want’ then ‘just let them have sex with you, it’s fine’.

And this is how you go from: trans women peeing in the toilet to: trans women will violate your sexual boundaries - in one sentence. Ta dah!

(Which is happening now in many lgbt circles so don’t shrug this off as scaremongering it is happening now !)

People say all sorts of silly things but sensible people just ignore them. There are people who will tell you you're racist for not sleeping with black people. You may or may not agree. Either way it's still your choice.

Super sensible people just ignore them is not a strategy for victims of rape and coercion, it's very worrying that you don't recognise the reality of this.

Dr @MoseShrute
May I ask you a couple of questions please?

and distressed by his genitalia and desperately wanted surgery to help his body dysphoria.

What is your view of current gender dysphoria treatment and transition in terms of effectiveness?

Transition including prescription hormones and surgery is frequently criticised on FWR as being wrong. There is a belief that a) it reinforces damaging stereotypes instead of reforming society and b) transgender individuals should be given therapy not surgery. How would you respond to this?

Do you believe everyone has a gender identity and what exactly is it?

That was 3 sorry. I understand if you're too busy to answer. Thanks.

just ignore them is not a strategy for victims of rape and coercion, it's very worrying that you don't recognise the reality of this.

This is typical of posters who think they are very skilled at reconstructing an argument that someone made to lead it to a conclusion that they didn't. Some of you do it a lot. It's easy to spot now.

I was talking about people on twitter and LGBT groups who are saying that for a lesbian to not have sex with a trans woman with a penis is transphobic. Clearly it isn't. Most people can see that.

That is not the same as saying 'ignore them' is a strategy for victims of rape and coercion. I am definitely not saying that. Rape and coercive behaviour are crimes - and should be treated as such. I've made that explicit and I'm not going to engage with you any further on it.

Super re social media claims that not sleeping with a penis is transphobic. By saying they are silly statements, ignore them, you are denying their power. Those statements are then used to gaslight and coerce. You can't say they're unrelated. Similarly, extreme right wing comments a la Britain First encourage people to believe their behaviour is justified. (I'm ignoring the personal insults, I'll take one for the team on account of how abusive feminists apparently are)

Pratchet I means 'I am a woman' means I identify and present as a woman.

SuperMatchGame

Yes I am concerned that men masquerading as transwomen are out to violate women’s sexual boundaries, does this not concern you too?

And I think that this current path of blind acceptance of identities is encouraging people to allow others to set their boundaries for them. This is inherently wrong.

Mucky, Sorry I don't know what the 'woman' in the second part of your sentence means, at the end.

'Not sleeping with a penis'
Transactivism, destroying language so that we have to reduce people to genitals if we want to understand each other.

Fair enough Newbie I can see how they could be related and used to try and set norms or coerce amongst less empowered groups. I think with Britain First there is a far bigger audience (that doesn't need much persuading). For 'not sleeping with a penis is transphobic I would have thought most people would see that as so ridiculous that it wouldn't have any power. I'm also not sure it happens outside the twittersphere/ youtube and beyond the realm of the keyboard warrior but perhaps you're right.

Yes Thisis it is concerning that men could masquerade as trans women to violate women's boundaries.

I also think people have the right to self determination and autonomy of identity. Isn't that a key underlying principle of feminism?

Quite right Pratchet its not about the genitals is it. It's about the whole person and who they are inside.

Or is it?

Thank you Super. I honestly don't believe people here are transphobic and man-hating. We need these conversations to find our common ground.

Quite right SMG. The whole person is so much more than the person's sex. Only the sex is defined by biology. This is unchangeable, even by personality.

But there we are. Transactivism has taken 'women' and turned us into 'people with a cervix'. It wasn't feminists who did that.

People say all sorts of silly things but sensible people just ignore them

There speaks a person who is oblivious to what often happens to girls who ignore boys and women who ignore men.

Supermatch I think it can be very easy to assume that certain conversations or ideas had on social media stay there or only exist there. Sometimes that absolutely is the case. However, within LGBT circles the concept of transwomen = woman has taken hold so strongly that the message for young LGBT is that they must be on board or be effectively shunned. A community that should be there to support young lesbians as they navigate the world, who may come from unsupportive backgrounds, telling them this is the way it is, is no small thing.

And the thing is, there is no fudging around the edges on this one. Either you believe that woman is an internal identity that could be in a male or female body or you don't. If you don't, then to others who do, you are transphobic.

I really don't understand how concepts such as gay and lesbian can exist under gender ID.

There are tragic accounts of girls under pressure who are depressed, sleepless and bullied. Awful. They come out as lesbians and instead of being welcomed and respected, this is what happens to them.

However, within LGBT circles the concept of transwomen = woman

Trans women are women. Legally they have the right to be recognised as women/ female. That doesn't mean anyone should be told they have to sleep with someone they don't want to. That's a false equivalence - they aren't the same thing.

There are tragic accounts of girls under pressure who are depressed, sleepless and bullied. They come out as lesbians and instead of being welcomed and respected, this is what happens to them.

There are also tragic accounts of young trans men who come out as trans men and instead of being welcomed and respected - they are pressured and bullied and misgendered. It is the views often expressed on these forums that have that exact effect on them.

Citations please.

super people with a grc are legally their acquired gender but that is a legal distinction not a biological one.

We do not have self ID here yet.

I fail to see your logic. If transwomen are women like any other and a lesbian says I am only attracted to women (because that's what lesbian means) but excludes transwomen due to them being born male. The only logical result of that must be that the lesbian is transphobic as she excludes one type of woman from a dating pool only because they are trans. How do you think that influences young lesbians to be told their boundaries are problematic by a community that is supposed to be about and for them? Yes there is a difference between forcing somebody to have sex and shaming them into it but neither is a great position.

I'm also not sure it happens outside the twittersphere/ youtube and beyond the realm of the keyboard warrior but perhaps you're right.

The thing you have to remember Supermatch is quite how much young people's lives are conducted online.

Most of it actually. Online pressure is enormously effective and devestating.

What is medium gender critical? Is this what the world has come to?

Gender is gender in my eyes.