MNHQ I hope you know there are some of us who fully agree with your new rules

[RealEstateNovelist]

HQ, I think your decision about terms to ban is completely appropriate and very much needed. I believe in referring to a person how that person wants to be referred, and respecting that choice. And I think if we cut our the false equivalencies and deliberate obtuseness, we can all understand the spirit of what you are trying to do. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for you to draft a policy and perhaps it may need some tweaking or explaining over time, but I think drawing some boundaries to ensure respectful dialogue is absolutely the right call.

I just worry that a lot of voices like mine aren’t heard on here because they just don’t have the time or energy for a fight. The “gender critical” crowd post so often about the same things over and over again that it may seem like they represent most or all of MN. But the truth is it’s just not worth arguing with them, as they immediately start hurling insults or acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with them is narrow-minded or stupid. They’re not going to convince me and vice versa and I don’t need to open myself up to derision and aggression. I get enough of that from my toddlers .

No doubt they will be here momentarily to start shouting me down, but I was hoping maybe the rest of us could have ONE thread to let HQ know where we stand without being drowned out by posters who are louder and more determined, but perhaps not larger in number, than everyone else.

I respectfully ask that in this one thread, the usual feminist board posters would keep quiet for a moment to let HQ hear the opinions of some others. Based on the tone of the discourse thus far I don’t have high hopes, but it would certainly make me respect them more if they would show some consideration to the rest of us.

Thank you in advance to anyone who is willing to let this happen.

There is a very interesting article in the Times Magazine today.

It contributed to my views, even though I suspect it was meant not to.

Sorry, "strengthened", not "contributed". I chose a wrong word in my first post.

Could you post a link?

No, sorry, I bought the paper, don't have a subscription.

It's a about facial feminisation. Fascinating.

OP, you say gender critical feminists "...immediately start hurling insults or acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with them is narrow-minded or stupid."

If people hurl insults at you, I hope you report them. That's unacceptable anywhere on MN. However - if there was nothing to report - and there was no abuse - it sounds as if you were out argued and got the hump.

This happens a lot on FWR when people who have uncritically absorbed transgender talking points try telling us what bigots we are. It happens because the logic behind gender critical feminism is consistent, unlike the arguments raised for transgenderism, which require a quasi religious faith in a gendered "soul".

No one is trying to silence you, OP. Trans pressure groups are trying very hard to silence women who won't shut up about biology and who centre women and girls.

A bunch of political extremists are trying to silence women talking about something that affects us all and affects safeguarding. On Mumsnet, FFS. That this doesn't bother you says everything I need to know about your feminism.

I never post on the FWR boards. But I am a GC feminist whose eyes have been opened by the discussion on here and I will always be grateful for the women who have stuck their heads above the parapet to say what needs to be said.

I've not yet been brave enough to post about this issue on social media, under my real name. But I'm increasingly feeling the need to start speaking up about this madness and these lies, so I'm starting here.

OP, you are entitled to your opinion. But don't tell me where to post. Don't tell me how to use my own language. Don't tell me to be quiet.

I respect an individual's decision to live their life however they please, but I will not be made to lie about my own reality and collude in my own silencing any more.

Ive no idea what the new policy is, and if I'd known this was what your thread was about I wouldn't have opened it.

Because there is so much abuse if you don't agree with the gender critical it's beyond pointless. There is no discussion to be had. No debate. It's just a bunch of angry posters abusing anyone who disagrees with them, so you may as well not bother.

I'm definitely a GC feminist. I'm a bit of a lurker and I occasionally comment on a post more as a placemarker than anything else.

But you coming along to tell me not to comment if I disagree with you? Well done, OP, you've made me realise I need to become a lot more vocal.

As in any discussion, if people are being abusive it should be reported.

There are many insults and useless comments on this thread alone. Do people think this lends credence to their argument?

I do appreciate the well though out comments and I take them on board. I do still respectfully disagree. I won’t get into specifics but I have to say my opposition has become much stronger as a result of the nastiness and immaturity of many of the GC threads — it shows major disrespect of other posters and of trans people in general. Even if I agreed with the GC premise, I don’t identify and I wouldn’t want to affiliate myself with a group that presents itself that way. Certainly there are many cogent and polite arguments as well, but unfortunately the name calling, absurd hyperbole and false equivalencies often stand out more. If you are trying to convince people to see what you see about these issues, a respectful discussion would go much further. I’m not trying to “silence” anybody or “force the little women to behave in a gender-approved manner.” I would say the exact same thing if it were a group of mostly men.

I apologize if anyone felt like this thread was trying to control or silence them. I’ve been on MN a long time and I well know that a thread will go where it goes. I was simply asking for a bit of respectful consideration on ONE thread, compared to the thousands of opposing ones. I understand that you may feel unheard in much of public discourse but on MN you are extremely vocal and prolific. I personally do feel intimidated about sharing my views, not because I’m afraid to be “out-argued” but because goady comments like that make it clear that there’s no chance of reasoned discussion.

I do consider myself a feminist as to me that means the right to freely choose my views and how I live my life. I probably have a lot of views in common with the GC crowd but to me but this particular issue simply doesn’t add up the same way it does for many of you. I’ve read enough to understand your views and I respect your right to have them. It would be nice if the reverse were true.

It’s funny that people call these discussions “debate.” As far as I see, the vast majority of them are an outrage echo chamber. I don’t have the same degree of passion about this issue, which to be fair is probably because my view for the moment seems to be the majority.

I do agree that I may have misjudged the responses I would get. Whether MN has misjudged is less clear, as they have more than one constituency to please, including the ones that actually pay the bills. In any event, I accept that perhaps MN is no longer the place for me.

I will probably keep reading this thread (if I remember to,) but it’s unlikely I will respond again. I apologize for the length of this post; I’m sure it could be edited but it’s already taken up 45 minutes that I could have spent with my family and that’s enough for me.

*Note: I’ve tried to qualify every statement i this post to show that I am only expressing my own views and I am not referring to all GC posters. I know I’ve said “you” and “GC” but I hope you can consider the context and understand that I don’t paint everyone with the same brush. It’s just exhausting sometimes to try to write something that can’t have etymological holes poked in. To avoid that game, let me be clear that if I have used any words or phrases that you interpret as being negative toward women in any way, it was inadvertent. There is truly no hidden subtext here.

You said you believe in referring to a person as they want to be referred to. In that spirit, I want you to only refer to me as Your Highness from now on.

I'm GC, and I post in Feminism. The one sticking point for me is gendering and naming.

I first met my friend X over twenty years ago. I didn't even know she was trans for a good six months. I still haven't a clue what her 'male' name was, it's just not relevant.

I have since met other trans friends and colleages, transwomen and transmen. I simply can't comprehend suddenly calling them he instead of she or vice versa. It would be a shitty thing to do.

I have used this example : say my name is Suzanne for example. I like either my full name or Sue. If you call me Suzie, Sooz or Zanne I will ask you not to and remind you gently of my preference. If you persist in using the shortenings I loathe, I just won't respond.

I fully understand the biological reality - I just can't act differently online than I do in real life, it would be hypocritcal.

I save my anger for the aggressive TRAs who are a tiny, noisy group in the Trans community and seem hell bent on damaging women, girls, gay, lesbian, bi, trans and transexual people.
My cousin is lesbian and has been insulted and attacked by them. Trans people I know are appalled by them, it's making their lives difficult.

I believe 'gender' is a a social construct and is total rubbish, I see the reality of biology as finite. Sex not gender is a fact.

We need sex segregated spaces.

Newbie has summed up my feelings on this matter nicely.

real most of us (if not all) started out on the other side. I think the hardest part for me was when i realised what the 'mean people' were actually going on about and trying to sort out in my own head how I could square the circle.

I couldn't and neither can anyone else.

I believe there is a path that could be carved out but if people can't agree on what is reality and what is belief, I doubt it will be any time soon.

I understood the new guidelines even though I disagree with some of them and think there should have been some consultation. It's the piecemeal 'clarifications' that are causing me confusion/anger/despair.

Can we have a rasp emoji? [RASSSP!}

Wear what you want and change your name? Fine

Stamp you feet when people with willies are called men? Deluded

Tell me when and what to post? If you like wasting time

Expect me to obey your orders? You are in for a long wait

I agree with OP, and am gender critical. I’ve given up posting because people keep telling me what kind of feminist I am. I’ve never been a fan of teams have no formal or informal affliation. Also lost of poster ask to only receive replies from a specific group.

The new guidelines are an attempt to silence women on a website that's meant to be for women- it's fucking bollocks.

MNHQ have been cowards over this- they care more about money than women's rights and feminism.

The ironic thing is that I used to be fine about sharing spaces with transpeople and didn't really have any issues- but seeing the way TRAs are silencing women with concerns and denying biological reality- I'd refuse now on principle.

I barely ever post. And extremely rarely in FWR.

However, I read threads weekly and I completely agree with NewbieSpartacus.

I will not stand by and let this right on doublespeak become our future.

I object to the OP saying "some of us" when it's actually just him/her.

Soapbox is right about how many people have had their eyes opened on MN over the huge implications of this issue for women and girls, Real.

I get that you find the topic obnoxious but I'm not clear why - if you don't want to engage - you think censoring other women here is a good thing. If you don't like it, ignore it. I ignore things all the time.

I'm also GC but agree with the OP. But it's impossible to give that opinion most of the time because you're met with such hostility.

So you get the same voices over and over again on the same threads and they are so convinced they are right and feel triumphant that they've pushed people off threads.

I'm another person who doesn't tend to post in Feminism but reads regularly and agrees with much of it. I do have concerns about the new guidelines, and you are right, MN needs to hear my voice as well as that of the regulars.