MNHQ I hope you know there are some of us who fully agree with your new rules

[RealEstateNovelist]

HQ, I think your decision about terms to ban is completely appropriate and very much needed. I believe in referring to a person how that person wants to be referred, and respecting that choice. And I think if we cut our the false equivalencies and deliberate obtuseness, we can all understand the spirit of what you are trying to do. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for you to draft a policy and perhaps it may need some tweaking or explaining over time, but I think drawing some boundaries to ensure respectful dialogue is absolutely the right call.

I just worry that a lot of voices like mine aren’t heard on here because they just don’t have the time or energy for a fight. The “gender critical” crowd post so often about the same things over and over again that it may seem like they represent most or all of MN. But the truth is it’s just not worth arguing with them, as they immediately start hurling insults or acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with them is narrow-minded or stupid. They’re not going to convince me and vice versa and I don’t need to open myself up to derision and aggression. I get enough of that from my toddlers .

No doubt they will be here momentarily to start shouting me down, but I was hoping maybe the rest of us could have ONE thread to let HQ know where we stand without being drowned out by posters who are louder and more determined, but perhaps not larger in number, than everyone else.

I respectfully ask that in this one thread, the usual feminist board posters would keep quiet for a moment to let HQ hear the opinions of some others. Based on the tone of the discourse thus far I don’t have high hopes, but it would certainly make me respect them more if they would show some consideration to the rest of us.

Thank you in advance to anyone who is willing to let this happen.

I'm fairly new to Mumsnet.

Frankly I've been appalled by some of the Gender Critical (?) threads I've read.
I identify as feminist but I don't identify with a blanket you're not a woman if you weren't born a woman argument. Obviously some people really are trapped in the wrong body, and I wonder how the more strident posters would feel if one of their own children were affected by this.

Nonetheless I am concerned by Self ID. The Labour Party in particular is handling it badly, and there is a real debate that needs to be had. Self ID advocates seem wilfully misogynistic, or worryingly naive. It seems to lead to bizarre decisionss in sports which render meaningful competition null and void, and potentially dangerous situations in changing rooms and toilets. However while the argument is so vitriolic I won't be getting involved. I agree with you OP. I think Mumsnet is absolutely right to introduce guidelines to moderate the tone of the debate.

moredoll, as you say, you’re new, so maybe you should read a few more of the feminist threads before judging concerned women. BTW, with your questioning of self ID, you would be labelled a TERF by the MRAs.

If you believe that the soul was trapped in the wrong body why would you object to Self ID?
There are women here whose children are affected by this.
If you read the threads or ask them you will be told what you are wondering about @moredoll.

I understand that I would be labelled a TERF, but in a way that's what I mean -while the argument is about labels the debate can't happen.
Self ID is complex. Doubtless there are people who are abusing the situation, Ian Huntley being the obvious example, but there will be people who are trying to express their own true identities.

Identities don't change your sex.

moredoll

Can i just ask

Is it just on here you don't want to get 'into the argument' or is it online in general or in real life

moredoll somebody being born in the wrong body would mean that what makes us male or female has nothing to with our bodies but some sort of inner soul.

I appreciate the new rules. I'm a feminist who has been posting on Mumsnet for 15 years, I have a teenager who identifies as transgender, and I have been appalled by the regular vitriol spewed out on Mumsnet lately about trans people.

There may be plenty to debate around this issue, there have always been arguments in feminism about aiming for equality versus aiming for protecting women as more vulnerable than men. That's an old feminist argument, I tend to be on the equality side of it, and maybe that's why I see feminism and transgender rights as very compatible. Both are reisting the patriarchal norms.

There may be some highly annoying or dubious people arguing for things that feminists have historically been uncomfortable with, but I don't think that is a justification for spewing out nastiness towards trans people. We know that transgender people are vilified and attacked in society, still, on a regular basis, it is a hard thing to be, even in 2018 it's not a load of fun identifying as transgender, and as a feminist I'm standing with them not against them.

I think that is one of the key areas of contention. I don't believe that transactivism in its current form is working against the patriarchy at all. I think it is strengthening it.

Some transactivism, yes indeed.
There are many more moderate people besides the high profile cases, as with many political or social movements, a ,few extremists who don't represent the majority.

I would be fine with a reasoned debate using feminist tenets on the pros and cons of transactivism within a patriarchy. You can still do that, IMO, without the dismissal and nastiness (which I keep seing on Mumsnet, on thread after thread) towards people who are not happy in their assigned gender identity.

I think the point here is there's a difference between adult and respectful discussion and debate and some of the things said in here.

I had a trans partner and I mentioned this once and someone said 'haha does your partner wear tight with his leg hair poking through?'

What is the need for that? (My partner was actually female to male trans, angry mumsnetters always seem to think all trans peiple are male to female)

I found it so upsetting and nobody on the thread stood up against that. Some laughed along.

That's the problem.

It's equally as offensive and upsetting to me for people to say they are women because they present like one and identify/feel like one. It's desperately upsetting. They know it's upsetting and they just carry on, coming back day after day to repeat it, complaining when I say it isn't true, trying to stop me from saying that it isn't true. It's heartbreaking. I have a daughter. I'm devastated for her. Devastated.

Mad dadam do you have any screenshots of vitriol spewed by feminists in Mumsnet?

Madd Yes there are more moderate voices but they get attacked, if not more so, by the right on woke brigade. I'm talking about trans people who know they are not the opposite sex but need/want to present how they do for their own sanity.

And no, I don't believe in an inner gender identity. Show me evidence and I'm with you until then, no.

People should be able to dress and present themselves how they like. But while we're a species with two sexes and one of those sexes is very much more likely to commit sex and violent crimes against the smaller, weaker one we need single sex spaces.

Doesn't matter what you're wearing or how you identify. Biological males have no place in women's facilities or sports.

I'm not anti trans. I am for the rights of women and girls. That's feminism.

Mucky I've no doubt that people can over step the mark. Though here on mumsnet you should report harassment.

The speed at which changes are being imposed, without proper risk assessments, without consultation, being told to even think about consequences makes you a bigot akin to the worst of humanity. Having to meet in secret for fear of physical confrontation or having venues cancelled because of a concerted effort to intimidate those involved. Few MPs are willing to even engage in the topic though apparently law changes could be happening in the near future some even crowing that they are 'ahead of the law' . With all of that, are your even slightly surprised that people are being slightly less than polite?

haha does your partner wear tight with his leg hair poking through?'

That was said on MN? I have never seen any of the feminists say anything remotely like that. It would, quite rightly, be roundly condemned.

Women's sex based protections are being eroded. Transactivists are deliberately targeting anything to do with the word woman. And they are succeeding.

There is example after example.

When girl guide guidelines recommend a mother is deliberately not told that her 10-year-old daughter is sharing overnight accommodation and showers with a 14-year-old boy something has gone very wrong. When safeguarding goes out the window and informed consent is neither sought nor provided feminists will absolutely ask how this happened.

This isn't, and never has been about people with gender dysphoria. Indeed, many transsexuals post on the threads in full agreement with feminists. This is about transactivists whose agenda is vastly different to that of transsexuals.

And for a website that is predominantly occupied by parents, it's about the online pressure aimed at our children, which results in them being permanently sterile, with limited to no sexual function and on drugs for the rest of their life.

You have to ask yourself something about feminists. Historically they champion minorities, they are liberal minded and generally left-wing. Many are LGBT themselves. They are often naturally gender nonconforming. They are open-minded, patient and in support of women because they see them disadvantaged by a sexist society.

Do you really think that women like this would turn into uptight, raging bigots overnight?

They haven't.
They are doing what they always did, protecting women and children.

For most of these women this has been a journey. It's no good coming and reading about their journey halfway through, without fully understanding how they got there.

I suggest you read more, not less.

Applause

Also what Datun said

Yeah Datun

You just nail it every time

Ta for that

Maddaddam, you perhaps aren't aware of the support FWR have given to the parents of transgender DC. I will always treasure an email from one mother who said our support of her and her DC had been "life changing". That's the only quote I will be making from what was a personal message.

Feminist analysis has been praised by other parents of transgender DC. Check out the blog Gender Critical Dad.

Then there's 4th Wave Now. There are others if you're interested.

Once again, for the 1000th time. ‘what Datun said’.

Great post, Datun. I find it's the fact that I'm known to be all for minority rights that makes people listen to me on this topic.

Like many, I just nodded along with the transgender narrative until I realised just how toxic it was. After that I researched it on my own and was increasingly disturbed.

I find it incredibly offensive that men feel that they can demand to be thought of as women because they say they are and the terms bigot, transphobes, TERF are thrown at women that won’t go along with this fantasy. It’s all about the men, without ANY thought give to women and how they feel about having to shove over and give way to these, mainly, men.

I have a lot of respect for those transexuals that are honest and respect women’s rights to men free spaces. I’m happy to share spaces with these men, because their issues have been genuine and they’ve ‘committed’ to trying to follow, what they think, is a woman’s life.

But I won’t have any man tell me they ‘are’ a woman, because they have no fucking idea what it is like to grow up as a female in a patriarchal society, being cat called, dismissed, harassed, suffering horrific periods (or suffering because of lack of periods), judged on having large breasts or their breasts being ‘too small’, etc etc. I will give ‘genuine’ transgender people respect, but I won’t shove over and give them ‘my’ space as a woman, because they demand it.

The enemy of genuine transgender people is not gender critical feminists, their real enemies are those in the TRA who are bullying, harassing, doxing and threatening women. They are the ones creating the problems for real trans people. They are the ones creating the anger and fear. Complain to them, tell them to back off and leave women alone, tell them they are the hate filled ones that are creating problems for trans people. You won’t, because it’s safer and easier to complain to women, demand that they lie about people’s sex and demand that they shove over. We are the safe people to complain about, because we’re not the ones threatening violence.

Everything you say perf

Applauding Datun and Perf.