MNHQ I hope you know there are some of us who fully agree with your new rules

[RealEstateNovelist]

HQ, I think your decision about terms to ban is completely appropriate and very much needed. I believe in referring to a person how that person wants to be referred, and respecting that choice. And I think if we cut our the false equivalencies and deliberate obtuseness, we can all understand the spirit of what you are trying to do. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for you to draft a policy and perhaps it may need some tweaking or explaining over time, but I think drawing some boundaries to ensure respectful dialogue is absolutely the right call.

I just worry that a lot of voices like mine aren’t heard on here because they just don’t have the time or energy for a fight. The “gender critical” crowd post so often about the same things over and over again that it may seem like they represent most or all of MN. But the truth is it’s just not worth arguing with them, as they immediately start hurling insults or acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with them is narrow-minded or stupid. They’re not going to convince me and vice versa and I don’t need to open myself up to derision and aggression. I get enough of that from my toddlers .

No doubt they will be here momentarily to start shouting me down, but I was hoping maybe the rest of us could have ONE thread to let HQ know where we stand without being drowned out by posters who are louder and more determined, but perhaps not larger in number, than everyone else.

I respectfully ask that in this one thread, the usual feminist board posters would keep quiet for a moment to let HQ hear the opinions of some others. Based on the tone of the discourse thus far I don’t have high hopes, but it would certainly make me respect them more if they would show some consideration to the rest of us.

Thank you in advance to anyone who is willing to let this happen.

Why am I silencing you? I disagree with you. That's different to saying everyone but one person should be quiet, and if they don't then it's a 'mob' - which is indeed silencing.

Bibesia These things do not happen in a vacuum. It is perfectly OK to disagree with someone and to do so passionately.

However, when one group's position is painted as nasty and bigoted it others them. Keep in mind there should be nothing bigoted about wanting to maintain women's boundaries and rights. It makes them a target for people who think it is OK to silence and physically attack those they disagree with.

TRAs view words and opinions as 'literal violence' and use this view to justify physical attacks on women they don't agree with.

I thought by saying ‘just stop’ you meant I should not have suggested this/suggest this? I thought you meant that I should not make suggestions if I don’t also go make them on forums I don’t use and are not relevant to me. That sounded to me like you are saying I shouldn’t speak about this, I should be silent. But perhaps you telling me to stop doesn’t actually mean stop?

But you clearly don’t want to consider my suggestion, which is fine, you don’t have to. But I take exception to you saying I’m trying to silence women. Having different styles of conversation available is not silencing. I am not stopping anyone from making open threads and saying anything they like. I am suggesting that it would also be interesting to have conversations between two people.

Datun for PM

Seconded

Ah you mean telling you to stop silencing women is silencing women?

Ok, shout about silencing women if you like and I'll just point out that's what you want to do. Go ahead. I do apologise for saying 'stop silencing women', I see now what a silencing tactic that was

You can tell me I’m silencing women all you like, it won’t make it true. But It’s good to know that structured discussion and debate between individuals is silencing to you and not something you will consider. Ive seen it as a good thing, that can give a balanced conversation and both sides a chance to make their argument and counter arguments. A chance to point out the flaws in arguments and actually change minds rather than seeming to overwhelm with a multitude of voices.

Open conversation is great, but I will always maintain that it isn’t the only form of communication that can be valid.

You are literally saying: most of you stay quiet please. And you are dressing it up as 'structured discussion'.

You seem to have invented a problem here, whose solution requires women to stay quiet. The 'problem' of women not understanding multiple voices.

Many, many women read the feminism boards, understand perfectly what is going on and become gender critical as a result. In fact, women are understanding it so well that there is continuous pressure for us to stop talking.

I cannot for the life of me understand why a gender critical feminist would join that chorus.

You know what messes with structured debate?

Punching people
Crying wolf
Othering
Redefining and inventing language
Insulting people
Bomb threats
Blackmailing
Rape threats
Inciting violence
Doxxing
DARVO
Blocking access to discussion venues
Telling people to shut it

Any of those actions attempt to turn a debate into a dictatorship. Narcissists don't debate.

There are pp on this thread who say they find the feminist section difficult to engage with because of the multitude of voices. I didn’t make it up.

I have seen this comment a few times, on a few threads. I thought I’d offer a solution that might also lead to interesting conversations I would like to see. Alongside the usual open forums. Perhaps not on mumsnet, perhaps unworkable, perhaps communicated badly.

But you carry on believing that the only way to talk to anyone, ever, is for everyone to pitch in at once. Let the good arguments get lost in the free for all.

And Iam if that is directed at me, quite obviously all of that is not ok, not what I’m advocating, not what I tolerate. But that isn’t what I saw upthread where pp had tried to engage (as far as I’m aware appropriately) and stopped because they found the multitude of voices too much.

I cannot understand why adding another form of conversation is apparently taking anything away, it isn’t. It’s adding to the discourse. It’s not preventing anyone from also saying what they want in the open forum.

I am not saying stop talking, I’m saying talk, in many ways, with many people.

If you can’t see I’m trying to help then frankly I can’t see how it can be anything other than you deliberately trying to misunderstand me.

Perhaps they mean that they were swiftly disabused of their misconceptions and found it an unenjoyable experience

Quite possibly.

For every poster who wants gender critical feminists silenced (very on a women's forum), I've seen more in recent months saying a version of "holy shit I thought I was being tolerant but I've been lead right up the garden path."

There's been a lot of consciousness raising about gender issues, from males in women's prisons to child transition, and increasingly Mumsnetters are seeing the problems.

Trans activists always demand that we "educate" ourselves, which is funny because it was educating myself on the topic that lead straight to my gender critical views and revived my feminism.

I went on my first LGB march when I was 14. I'm a total hippy lefty. After careful thought, I oppose trans ideology because in its current form it damages the interests of women and girls, is homophobic, and is dangerous to children. Gender non conforming children do not need to be told their body or their sex is wrong. They need support to understand that sex doesn't dictate their interests, clothing or personality.

QueasySqueezy

I know why you are trying to find a workaround to the way the feminist boards work. Unfortunately, I think the posters who request that, invariably don't really want that, at all.

I offered, it was not accepted. I didn't think it would be.

We often get complaints which may, or may not, be spurious. Many of them are, very definitely, an attempt to shut down debate. Which is why it raises hackles.

The whole Issue is a complex one and so many people start off with a live and let live attitude, and can't understand where the feminists are coming from.

Which is why the only real way to reach any kind of conclusion is to keep reading.

And you really can't make people do that. They have to reach that decision by themselves.

It’s always interesting to me how women are always expected to be respectful, gentle and accommodating,
There is a way society recoils from women expressing themselves that’s fascinating

I’m constantly reading threats, aggression, ‘die terf scum’, suck my lady dick etc etc but the big aggression in this debate is women misgendering?

It’s such a habit, we are so conditioned. We have to stand up for ourselves but not be mean while our rights are under threat

Honestly. Fuck that

You've just said The thing is that the hordes of people that pile into every trans thread on the site screaming about how we are all going to be raped to death by "a bloke in a dress,

then stated that self ID is open to abuse!

Because its too open to abuse from people who actually are looking to abuse it, its easy to see how the "bloke in a dress" people could use it for bad reasons. Any system where some very masculine-presenting guy can rock up in jeans with a huge beard and claim that he is IDing as a women for the next 10 minutes to go into a female space is clearly open to abuse. Just because I support people right to be trans does not mean I am blind to the fact that not every who say they are, is.

FFS! What the hell do you think GC feminists are worried about? You’ve accused feminists of being nasty, while then saying the above. Do you get many splinters in your ass, sitting on that fence?

There are pp on this thread who say they find the feminist section difficult to engage with because of the multitude of voices

I commented earlier in this thread that my knowledge is less than many of the awesome, patient and articulate posters on FWR. Please don't misinterpret that as me saying I find it difficult to engage with the debate.

My post was to point out that the guidelines, which are the subject of this thread, risk excluding me from the conversation.

I want to discuss the topic with different posters and to continue to access a range of view points. (Hence my concerns about the guidelines). I'm not asking for a 1:1.

There is an assumption that one person has all the responses to hand. Not the case at all. We all bring different points and evidence to the argument. We might even disagree with each other. There are plenty of GC feminists who don't mind using 'she' for a person with Y chromosomes. I'm not one of them. People who come here can listen to all those voices as they engage with transactivists. Which is a good thing.

No sorry I'm going to respond OP to say that I disagree with MN here. Whatever the Topic or subject, posters don't get to start threads that only invite agreement and I disagree with the new guidelines. I think you will also find that there are a very large number of lurkers who are concerned by the issues raised by self-id.

Women's voices are being silenced everywhere on the self-id issue and MN has started down the road of doing so too. I find the cult of self-id that has insidiously taken hold and I am convinced it is the greatest threat to women's rights in this country at the moment. I am very grateful to the posters who write about the issues in an incisive way. Whilst there are posters on both sides of the discussion who are on occasions less that delightful I don't think this is a reason to shut down debate. I do find it extremely scary how the trans-lobby has been so effective in stifling debate here, on social media in real life.

Ive seen it as a good thing, that can give a balanced conversation and both sides a chance to make their argument and counter arguments.

FYI Most women aren't really interested in having a structured debate on whether or not women are a sub category of women, or have too many rights.

There are several posters who have said they find the Feminism section difficult to engage with. This appears to include the OP.

That is because Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women. It takes a while of lurking and learning to inform oneself enough to engage.

This is true of any craft, skill, or political movement,. Listening and learning is the only cure for ignorance.

Most women aren't really interested in having a structured debate on whether or not women are a sub category of women, or have too many rights

Thank god for you. In a nutshell this is it.

Would be a rather short debate, wouldn't it?

Non-feminist debater - Do women have too many rights, and should they shut up?

Feminist debater - No

But what if we put tampons in little baskets in the men's toilets? Surely you wouldn't mind then