MNHQ I hope you know there are some of us who fully agree with your new rules

[RealEstateNovelist]

HQ, I think your decision about terms to ban is completely appropriate and very much needed. I believe in referring to a person how that person wants to be referred, and respecting that choice. And I think if we cut our the false equivalencies and deliberate obtuseness, we can all understand the spirit of what you are trying to do. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for you to draft a policy and perhaps it may need some tweaking or explaining over time, but I think drawing some boundaries to ensure respectful dialogue is absolutely the right call.

I just worry that a lot of voices like mine aren’t heard on here because they just don’t have the time or energy for a fight. The “gender critical” crowd post so often about the same things over and over again that it may seem like they represent most or all of MN. But the truth is it’s just not worth arguing with them, as they immediately start hurling insults or acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with them is narrow-minded or stupid. They’re not going to convince me and vice versa and I don’t need to open myself up to derision and aggression. I get enough of that from my toddlers .

No doubt they will be here momentarily to start shouting me down, but I was hoping maybe the rest of us could have ONE thread to let HQ know where we stand without being drowned out by posters who are louder and more determined, but perhaps not larger in number, than everyone else.

I respectfully ask that in this one thread, the usual feminist board posters would keep quiet for a moment to let HQ hear the opinions of some others. Based on the tone of the discourse thus far I don’t have high hopes, but it would certainly make me respect them more if they would show some consideration to the rest of us.

Thank you in advance to anyone who is willing to let this happen.

I’m seeing a theme here.

There are several posters who have said they find the Feminism section difficult to engage with. This appears to include the OP.

Might it be possible that this is partly because on threads you get a lot of posters making similar points/asking multiple questions which can seem overwhelming and come across as attacking even if the posters do not mean it to be?

I know mumsnet might not be the place for this as it is not in the spirit to try to stop posters posting on threads, but I would very much like to see posters like the op given a voice and in debate with one opposing poster. Sort of conversation style. Perhaps that would lead to less frustration and misunderstandings and a clearer debate?

Perhaps with a poster who is eloquent and knows better than me how to say things without seeming offensive, someone like Datum? (Sorry to suggest you Datum if you think this would be awful, I’m terrible at remembering names but your post above illustrates the qualities I’m suggesting would be useful).

Then there would be fewer accusations of drowning out voices, and a debate can be had without accusations of rudeness or echo chambers?

Queasy I think that is the consequence of how online forums are set up. It isn't really possible to have a one on one conversation unless done in pm. Even if we agreed to only have one responder, we can't stop others getting involved or being a shill to derail.

It would also be a big task for the one gc feminist.

Maybe we could pair gc feminists up with newbies/interested parties like adopt a granny and do it through pm but I'm sure there would be issues.

queasy

It might be too difficult but i like the premise of your idea

Could in theory do it over two or three threads

So one with just the debate on it and one with comments and links to help the debater (not that datun would need the help)

It would have to be done in the same way MNHQ runs their webchat

But its probably a bit too difficult

QueasySqueezy

Absolutely. Any of these posters can start a thread, or come onto any thread and specifically address me.

This issue polarises people. Although I have to say, once you grasp the full scope of the implications, there are very few people who do not have lots of questions and challenges.

People feel very strongly that they are being fooled and duped, and therefore they will absolutely reply vociferously on a thread, which might look like a pile on.

I can promise you, the women don't all phone each other up beforehand and say right let's get 'em.

You cannot, and should not, stop people from commenting on a thread.

But there's nothing to stop individual posters ignoring everyone but me.

I have to say, I think it's a bit of an unworkable idea, though. It's incredibly difficult to ignore posters who are addressing you. And quite stressful, I should imagine, to try.

And it might come across a bit rude, too. Sorry. (And you know how mumsnetters can traditionally get with people they perceive as rude).

A better idea would be to read first.

Here is a good start.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Then go onto a thread and ask one question. Listen to the response. Have a discourse about that one, specific question.

And take it from there.

In fact that specific thread might be a good place. It's a bit of a 'newbie' thread and the responders are quite gentle.

There have been many threads in Feminism, AIBU and Chat about GC threads, from users complaining that the board is dominated by Trans issues.

The response from GC posters is 'why not start a thread in FWR about topics you are interested in' . Then, all goes quiet for a few weeks, rinse and repeat.

There are threads in FWR about other topics but if nobody posts on them, they quickly drop off 'Active' and gather dust.
There's loads of feminist issues we can talk about. Be part of the change you want to see.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3279591-Women-in-prison-punished-for-not-wearing-bra?msgid=78760611#78760611

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3281574-Helping-me-park

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3281778-Music-Festivals-and-sexual-harrassment

I agree my suggestion is entirely unworkable here and the way this forum is set up.

I just keep seeing this complaint over and over, and I’d like to see a solution so that it’s, 1. Not preventing certain posters from engaging meaningfully, and 2. Stops being yet another stick to beat feminist posters with.

I don’t know what that solution is though.

Yeah, call me cynical QueasySqueezy, but if there are mumsnetters who disagree with the feminists, and think we're being awful, there is nothing to stop them posting in the LGBT section here and holding out a hand of support to people directly affected by the issues.

Very true, but they do sometimes seem to want to engage with the feminism forum. There are several pp above who say they’ve been put off for whatever reason.

Maybe I’ve not quite reached your cynicism levels but that sounds to me like people who with discussion might one day be an ally.

To illustrate I long ago worked in equality and diversity departments, defending and fighting for the people I now don’t dare name here for fear of strikes. It took Mumsnet to help me see my GC views were directly opposite to theirs and what that meant for women.

I can wade through multi poster threads, but I know a lot of people who can’t and find it really difficult. The message is then lost to them, and I think it’s a shame it’s lost.

I knew it. I've just commented on this somewhere else after a comment about pile ons. What an absolute bare faced cheek.

Suggesting that people withdraw to give a transadvocate a 'fair fight' is just another way of silencing people.

Please stop trying to silence women. Just STOP.

The thing is that the hordes of people that pile into every trans thread on the site screaming about how we are all going to be raped to death by "a bloke in a dress" and how everyone who was born a man is always and forever a man and that makes them basically implicitly a rapist is also silencing women, yet everyone seems fine with them effectively silencing those people.
When people say they no longer engage with any trans threads on the feminism boards because they have so many aggressively anti-trans posts, the same posts again and again, that should tell you that what you have is not an effective debate of any kind, its just an echo chamber.

FWIW I DONT actually agree with self-ID as many people dont, but that doesnt mean that I think that the many trans people who are effectively living as and have identified as their psychological gender for YEARS should be sent to the prison of their birth sex just because thats how they were born. There seems to be no scope for any acknowledgement of those not-so-extreme not-a-rapist-in-a-dress people and thats what I find so painful.

I no longer read any of the "uncomfortable with mixed-sex toilets!" posts because I know exactly what most of the comments will be and honestly, I dont have it in me to be told how I'm supporting the rape of women any more.

I’m really confused about where all the ‘raped to death by a bloke in a dress’ threads are because I’ve lurked here for at least 10 years and never seen them!

I have seen lots of beyond patient posters repeatedly and eloquently explain why self ID is open to abuse and why trans ideology is inherently sexist and homophobic though!

I DONT actually agree with self-ID as many people dont

Why do you not agree with self-ID, StormTreader?

The thing is that the hordes of people that pile into every trans thread on the site screaming about how we are all going to be raped to death by "a bloke in a dress"

Oh give over.

I don't know what I'm insulted about most.

The blatant untruth, or the implication that the feminist women are that stupid.

I hate people who recommend other people educate themselves, but honestly, sometimes...

Women's sex based protections are being eroded. What do you think they're being protected from? Exactly?

We're not segregated so men don't talk about lawnmowers, or brewing their own beer. (Sexist yes, but I'm making a point).

We're segregated for safety. Safety from attack, and harassment.

It's not a secret. And it's not something that you can't say out loud.

And it certainly, categorically, is not something that women apply to ALL men, whether they are trans or not.

I could be safe with loads of men. But I have absolutely no way of knowing which ones.

Hence sex segregation. That's why it's there.

You really have to think of this much more sequentially.

And start with the premise of why we have sex segregation in the first place, how it is implemented and then work off that.

One of the reasons why this might polarise people is because of what happens next.

Once you start talking about why we have sex segregation, you get such a massive push back, that your only recourse is to react to that pushback.

At which point, statistics about transwomen who have committed crime, etc, are crucial to back up your argument!

This isn't done for no fucking reason.

Strewth.

Pratchet what I am suggesting is to have something as an addition not complete alternative.

If you, for instance, attend a WPUK event do you expect to have everyone saying their bit all at the same time? No, you have a structured discussion. In person when I debate and discuss I don’t do so with 20 people at once, I speak to one person at a time until we finish our discussion. I’m suggesting something similar. It is not silencing women to suggest that an opportunity for structured discussion for those that find multi poster threads difficult might be both useful and interesting.

But yeah if you think my aim is to silence women, you’ve completely misunderstood what I’m trying to communicate.

there are mumsnetters who disagree with the feminists, and think we're being awful
There are many feminists on mumsnet who disagree with you to some degree or another- you are not the feminists, you are some feminists.

they do sometimes seem to want to engage with the feminism forum
Well of course we do, feminism and feminist forums are not solely for people who think a particular way about trans issues.

Why do you not agree with self-ID, StormTreader?

Because its too open to abuse from people who actually are looking to abuse it, its easy to see how the "bloke in a dress" people could use it for bad reasons. Any system where some very masculine-presenting guy can rock up in jeans with a huge beard and claim that he is IDing as a women for the next 10 minutes to go into a female space is clearly open to abuse. Just because I support people right to be trans does not mean I am blind to the fact that not every who say they are, is.

How is it not silencing, when you are suggesting that most women here don't respond to points that are raised? It's a blatant request to stay quiet, to shut up.

I'm with OP. Using trans people's preferred names and pronouns is common courtesy. As a feminist I know that women are up against so much but I don't think it's furthering the cause to make things harder for trans women who already face enough flak and ignorance and also their own personal struggles when they want to transition or go through their very difficult journeys. I feel fortunate to be a woman and know it's a privilege to be comfortable in my gender identity and sexuality

What kind of feminist is happy to call a male person a woman? I don't get it.

People are calling the GC threads nasty and immature.

But the violence at women attending WPUK, the masked men blocking entryways, pushing women around, the bomb threats, theyre all ok are they?

How on earth can the second proposition conceivably be a logical consequence to the first? This is a classic example of the sort of approach OP has highlighted.

AsleepAllDay

I'm with OP. Using trans people's preferred names and pronouns is common courtesy.

It's not about common courtesy. Do you really think there are a whole bunch of educated, academic women who are quite happy just to be bloody rude all day?

Being polite is generally a gimme. Everyone understands that.

This debate is not about manners.

It's about being forced into submission by certain men, whether trans or not, on the pretence that it's all about manners. Or respect.

The transwoman who punched Maria Mac at speakers corner and was convicted of battery, for instance.

Maria was ordered, by the judge, and on the back of the defendant's team, to call her attacker, she.

The defendant had publicised the day before that they were going to go out and fuck up some terfs, ie target women.

Do you honestly believe that their demand, in court, that Maria called them she, was because they were distressed at her lack of manners?

Because if you do, you are part of the problem.

Pratchet you have quite clearly misunderstood me.

You really think that there is never a place for structured discussion? Not to replace free-for-all threads, but to complement them? Not in any part of life? Its presumably just fine to speak over each other or heckle speakers?

I am suggesting that it would potentially help to win over posters who otherwise feel overwhelmed by the forums. It’s not likely to work in mumsnet as I have acknowledged.

If we cannot win over hearts and minds and are not willing to explore alternative ways to do so, and to look carefully at those who are clearly telling us they want to engage but give valid reasons they don’t, then we are making things harder for ourselves.

Anyway, this is not what this thread was about so I will quit derailing now. I hoped my observation might be useful, but perhaps I have communicated it badly.

Why don't you suggest structured discussion somewhere else? Why don't you go to Angels and suggest they allow feminists to talk while most of them shut up? Why is it only here on Mumsnet you want women to stay quiet while TRA goad and harass?

Whoa. I’m on your side Pratchet! Or I thought I was!

I use mumsnet, I don’t use any other forums and if I did I might well suggest the same thing. I use mumsnet because I am a mum, I came here when pregnant and a new mum and experiencing maternity discrimination. That led me eventually to the feminist forum. This is my experience, this is the forum I use, why should I go elsewhere to forums I don’t use? But if I did, then I would probably suggest the same thing as I think debate is important and interesting, and mob-voice threads have their place but just possibly might not be the only kind of thread that might have value.

For the last time, I am not asking anyone to shut up. I have not said that anywhere.

I also have not suggested silence in the face of goading etc. That is not what I am trying to communicate.

But, interestingly, you telling me to stop making this suggestion is you trying to silence a woman.

Datun for PM