Mumsnet encouraging brigading by Twitter TRAs

[TerfinUSA]

Apparently Mumsnet now takes 'reports' by Twitter.

twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/991593570955153408

May I ask why? It seems normal that threads should be flagged on site, and that Twitter isn't an appropriate mechanism for this.

Moreover a purpose-built Twitter TRA account, one of hundreds on Twitter set up specifically to harass and silence gender-critical feminists is being actively engaged with, even as it publicly defames Mumsnet on Twitter

twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/991683672356028417

The TRA modus operandi on Twitter is to mass-report feminist accounts until they are blocked and banned, and dozens have been silences in this fashion, now it seems Mumsnet, is voluntarily submitting to TRA oversight.

A thread from November about an article from 'Shon Faye' on transgender access to women's refuges has been deleted based on this Tweet:

twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/991328378178473985

The basis for deletion appears to have been 'misgendering'. It seems to me that it is rendered impossible to have a discussion on protecting single sex spaces if you are forced to use 'preferred pronouns' instead of ones that reflect biological reality. It is rather hard to understand the worldview whereby the feelings of the likes of Shon Faye asserting the right to enter a single sex space is prioritised over actual domestic abuse and rape victims. Especially on a which from its name 'Mumsnet' clearly has some basis in female biology!

Moreover, it seems reports are being received on the basis of 'Shon's feelings might be hurt', but it doesn't seem these same standards are applied to people who are not TRAs.

Any given thread about anyone, be they Jamie Oliver, Chris Evans, whoever, is likely to have people being slightly rude, but it seems that Mumsnet is inviting TRAs to brigade the site to enforce trans ideology ('misgendering', etc.) and render women voiceless the same way they have done on Twitter.

Already TRAs are circling demanding bans of posters for not being 100% on-board with trans ideology, they will not rest until this place is indistinguishable from a NUS conference.

twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/991707542752583681

Thanks for the thread. I am astonished by this - why are they getting preferential treatment?

Isn't Mumsnet intended for the benefit of its users, not for authoritarians who like to plop in or control from afar?

I'm astonished by this too. Why pander to unpleasant TRA's? Lots of celebrities get an absolute pasting on here and elsewhere on the internet and it's allowed to stand.

This is clearly misogyny (targeting a forum with mostly women) and antifeminist (specific to the FWR board).

Didn't @JustineMumsnet say we should be allowed to discuss this stuff? There is clearly malicious reporting being upheld by @MNHQ it is jaw-dropping.

The basis for deletion appears to have been 'misgendering'. It seems to me that it is rendered impossible to have a discussion on protecting single sex spaces if you are forced to use 'preferred pronouns' instead of ones that reflect biological reality. It is rather hard to understand the worldview whereby the feelings of the likes of Shon Faye asserting the right to enter a single sex space is prioritised over actual domestic abuse and rape victims.

Yes, I would like to understand this too.

I can understand MN deleting a libellous post - one that made unsubstantiated allegations about someone in the public eye, for example. But I don't understand the deletion of perfectly civil posts for "misgendering".

Could you also explain the deletion of posts about Jazz Jennings?

Jazz is a reality TV show, this stuff is broadcast around the world, it's not some sort of transphobic lies.

www.teenvogue.com/story/jazz-jennings-talks-to-parents-about-orgasm
people.com/tv/jazz-jennings-transgender-bottom-surgery-complications/
www.teenvogue.com/story/jazz-jennings-interview

Disingenuous much? There's a state of posts on FWR at the moment which are clearly just about pushing boundaries and they do make Mumsnet look pretty bad if they let them stand like that.

Disingenuous, you?

Mumsnet have been deleting posts from last year, on the say-so of randoms on Twitter.

MN has generally never been 'policed' in terms of boundaries.

Good on you Mumsnet. I was starting to think the debate was one sided and you were turning a blind eye to the transphobia. Good to see it's being taken seriously.

Mumsnet has always had a 'no bullshit', shoot from the hip, robust culture of exchange. Suddenly authoritarians are telling us how to speak, what we can say, who we can speak about, how we are to think.

Is Mumsnet going to kow tow to them? People who want the world to be forced into a reality-distortion field?

Twitter is a total twat fest.

Why does Mumsnet have a Twitter account, when the TRAs have almost completely taken over the place.

I've been so grateful over the years that @MNHQ have allowed this discussion to take place, precisely because MN is NOT an echo chamber. Anyone can post here as long as they follow the talk guidelines and despite people like India Willoughby dismissively believing we all just talk about prams and nappies, there is an incredibly wide range of posters here who talk about every subject under the sun from all sorts of different perspectives.

That's why it has been such a great place to have a debate. The TRAs did their #nodebate thing for ages. Meh, their loss, the debate has just been happening without them, thanks to MN in no small part. As the debate has happened a helluva lot of women have reached peaktrans because large parts of the TRA agenda are completely fucking insane and extremely harmful to women and children.

Meanwhile the TRAs have been shut in their actual echo chambers (TERFBlocker anyone?) and have failed to notice that the rest of the world doesn't agree that a man is a woman just because he says so. Doesn't agree that all safeguarding concerns magically disappear because the male child sharing their daughter's tent identifies as a girl. Doesn't agree that punching women is justified and equivalent to some 'literal violence' bobbins about misgendering. Doesn't agree that the 2000% increase in young people referred to Tavistock is a cause for unquestioning celebration.

The reason they think MN is transphobic is because the debate has been allowed to happen here, the end result of the debate is that we disagree vehemently with TRAs (and can back up why), and this is exactly why they wanted #nodebate in the first place.

This targeted campaign to get posts deleted is just the same old #nodebate BS.

I've long had sympathy for MNHQ, knowing they must be under tremendous outside pressure to shut the debate down, knowing it must be incredibly hard work moderating discussions on such a politically sensitive issue. I've had great admiration that until now they haven't allowed the debate to be shut down but have instead stood up for freedom of speech on their site.

Looking back over the last few weeks, we've had:

• TGLWGH - please be nice and stick to some mysterious rules we can't tell you, if you can't see the problem you're probably the problem
• FWR hidden from active
• @JustineMumsnet standing up for freedom of speech on MN in the Times and on TalkRadio, acknowledging that merely having the discussion is seen as transphobic by TRAs
• FWR back on active
• Rogue ex employee breaching the DPA and MNHQ being extremely slow in taking this seriously
• multiple, totally inexplicable deletions, e.g. 'Bless', 'Yawn', 'Who is (name)?', repeating stuff that has been widely publicised in mainstream media with the enthusiastic consent of those involved, posts from ages ago

• and now, apparently, MNHQ teaming up with TRA trolls to silence us.

Good luck with that. They won't be happy until they've shut the whole thing down.

I don't know if I'll stick around to see what happens next. My mental health will probably thank me if I remove myself from this constant hot/cold, carrot/stick, free speech/shut up bullshittery with its mysterious, ever changing, unspoken rules. If MNHQ had set out to design a moderation policy with the purpose of sending us mad they could hardly have done better.

Ah well, it was good while it lasted.

Hi there

We're happy to have posts which might break our TGs pointed out over on Twitter or here - we'll take a look at them and use the same judgement in considering whether they break TGs wherever they're reported and whoever they're reported by.

It's important to note that, if someone has joined Mumsnet to report, it does not follow that the posts they are reporting do not deserve our attention, and deletion if they break TGs. The same is true when Twitter users discuss reporting Mumsnet posts - those posts may or may not break TGs, and we'll make our decision to delete or not based on TGs alone.

As we've said previously, free speech is not a free-for-all - and it can only be a debate if alternative voices can make themselves heard.

Kate are you saying that mass targeted reporting is in the 'spirit' of MN? @MNHQ are deleting sarcasm from posters but anyone, members or not, can harass & mass report & that's ok?

Reappearing, I'm saying that reporting isn't necessarily harrassment because it comes from someone who doesn't share your views. And that even if it were, the posts that are reported might still break our TGs.

I think that posters should cut MNHQ some slack. They are under immense pressure from a wealthy powerful movement with some very rigid beliefs and considerable access to politicians and those with influence. Mumsnet are not the issue.

Moderating these threads must be an almost impossible task and I think they are doing a remarkable job. While there are groups out there who are convinced that any deviation from their norms are 'hate speech' and - as we have seen - are prepared to use the police to try to enforce this, we have to take it seriously. I don't know what the answer is but I do appreciate the efforts of MNHQ to enable free speech.

I don't see how it could possibly be helpful for Mumsnet to encourage TRAs to tweet to their tens of thousands of followers screenshots of supposedly transphobic posts from Mumsnet.

I mean you could at least do it by DM.

I have dealt with companies far larger and more experienced than MN hosting objectionable content, and if you want to complain there is a procedure.

I don't see people criticising Google for hosting transphobic blogs. And if you don't like their content they aren't going to accept Tweets to delete it, they have a standard form to fill in where they clearly explain under what basis you can ask for content to be deleted, namely that it

"1. promotes hatred or violence against individuals or groups based on race or ethnic origin, religion, disability, gender, age, nationality, veteran status, or sexual orientation/gender identity

1. is shocking or graphic, without more context or commentary

or 3. threatens others"

Mumsnet is looking like it hasn't thought through its content policies nor its procedures for deletion and removal, because to an observer they appear to be changing on the fly in response to TRA brigading.

If Twitter users are tweeting supposedly objectionable content then the appropriate thing to do would be to reply with a link to the content guidelines, and how to report threads. It's ridiculous for you to search out specific threads based on out-of-context screenshots on Tweets and delete them, it looks like some acknowledgement of wrongdoing, whereas if you have a CLEAR content policy (you don't, Google's 'hatred' or 'violence' is far more specific than the rather meaningless term 'transphobia'), that explains what is and isn't acceptable and ONE way to report posts, then things are perfectly clear - posts will be reviewed only if they are reported, and deleted if they don't comply.

SomeRandonBird
I just can't believe all the confident sorts who post elsewhere on MN are too afraid to post on FWR. If you think it's one-sided then post on there and engage in the debate.

As a result of the new "please tweet us your complaints about Mumsnet users" policy one Mumsnet user just got a message from one of Shon Faye's followers saying that they hoped her baby would be stillborn.

That policy is working out great so far, huh?

Angry

Yes.

That's worth repeating. In bold

As a result of the new "please tweet us your complaints about Mumsnet users" policy one Mumsnet user just got a message from one of Shon Faye's followers saying that they hoped her baby would be stillborn.

I'm saying that reporting isn't necessarily harrassment because it comes from someone who doesn't share your views

What if the pro-life movement started a targeted campaign via Twitter to report posts discussing the Irish abortion referendum with the explicit aim of silencing pro-choice people?

Would that be deemed as harassment?

@AngryAttackKittens

As a result of the new "please tweet us your complaints about Mumsnet users" policy one Mumsnet user just got a message from one of Shon Faye's followers saying that they hoped her baby would be stillborn.

That policy is working out great so far, huh?

That's awful, and if it has happened via Mumsnet PMs please ask the MNer concerned to report it immediately. But I don't agree that it is as a result of us looking at posts that are drawn to our attention on Twitter, or that we've done a general callout to Twitter asking for complaints about Mumsnet users.

The problem is if I high profile TRA complaints on twitter about a Mumsnetter all their followers see the mumsnetters name or a link to the thread and then pile in to harass the individual. That’s the problem.

Whereas if you only took complaints via the usual reporting system here it’s all private. Plus people will actually have to make an account to report (which is fine) but it might put some people who aren’t that bothered off doing so. You’re making more work for yourselves by answering every tweet.

For a massive discussion forum populated mostly by women MN are displaying a whole lot of ignorance of how massive discussion forum populated mostly by women is seen by those who would wish to destroy a massive discussion forum populated mostly by women.

Encouraging public reporting on another site over which you have NO control is ridiculously foolish. Unable to check if is a previously banned poster, a hairy handed troll etc. Having your decison-making made public. Unable to deal with vexatious reporting. Any misogynous micro-celeb with a handful of followers can amplify via retweet and retweet and start a nasty internation pile-on within minutes.
You don't even have the mods to cope with internal reports . . .

Who advised this PR disaster? Never take their advice again.

I'm not officially on so I'm going to duck out now - but we're giving all this a lot of careful thought, and we'll continue to discuss here how to make things as straightforward and clear as possible for everyone so that these issues can be discussed within the bounds of civil debate.

Cheers all

MNHQ

Wander

Great post. Thanks for articulating that so well