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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet encouraging brigading by Twitter TRAs

217 replies

TerfinUSA · 02/05/2018 18:34

Apparently Mumsnet now takes 'reports' by Twitter.

twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/991593570955153408

May I ask why? It seems normal that threads should be flagged on site, and that Twitter isn't an appropriate mechanism for this.

Moreover a purpose-built Twitter TRA account, one of hundreds on Twitter set up specifically to harass and silence gender-critical feminists is being actively engaged with, even as it publicly defames Mumsnet on Twitter

twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/991683672356028417

The TRA modus operandi on Twitter is to mass-report feminist accounts until they are blocked and banned, and dozens have been silences in this fashion, now it seems Mumsnet, is voluntarily submitting to TRA oversight.

A thread from November about an article from 'Shon Faye' on transgender access to women's refuges has been deleted based on this Tweet:

twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/991328378178473985

The basis for deletion appears to have been 'misgendering'. It seems to me that it is rendered impossible to have a discussion on protecting single sex spaces if you are forced to use 'preferred pronouns' instead of ones that reflect biological reality. It is rather hard to understand the worldview whereby the feelings of the likes of Shon Faye asserting the right to enter a single sex space is prioritised over actual domestic abuse and rape victims. Especially on a which from its name 'Mumsnet' clearly has some basis in female biology!

Moreover, it seems reports are being received on the basis of 'Shon's feelings might be hurt', but it doesn't seem these same standards are applied to people who are not TRAs.

Any given thread about anyone, be they Jamie Oliver, Chris Evans, whoever, is likely to have people being slightly rude, but it seems that Mumsnet is inviting TRAs to brigade the site to enforce trans ideology ('misgendering', etc.) and render women voiceless the same way they have done on Twitter.

Already TRAs are circling demanding bans of posters for not being 100% on-board with trans ideology, they will not rest until this place is indistinguishable from a NUS conference.

twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/991707542752583681

OP posts:
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7
Truscum · 03/05/2018 14:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MarvelleGazelle · 03/05/2018 14:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tanith · 03/05/2018 14:19

Even with that open invitation and the account that TRAs have set up for reporting, there are a tiny number of posts they’ve managed to track down.

Hardly the “pages and pages” they complained about. Certainly not “the whole site” as they also tried to claim.

I think this is actually showing them up for the lying prima donnas that they are.

EmpressOfSpartacus · 03/05/2018 14:33

In the screenshotted tweet above, Travis appears to be using the same tone in which Travis ordered TopShop to allow Travis into their women's changing rooms. This comes across as somewhat rude and demanding.

PlectrumElectrum · 03/05/2018 14:42

There's definitely a shift in tone from mods - I'm sensing a bit of a 'culture battle' going on atm and it looks like the Emma/Hannah's of MN towers are in the ascendence. Which is a pity as the humour from the mods has usually been refreshing and appreciated. I think I'm done too. 12/13 years I've lasted and the thing that made this place different was the wit, humour, passion & compassion of the women who collectively made this place sooooo addictive. When thats getting zapped in the name of 'transphobia' it looses its appeal.

Not sure I can go cold turkey but I think I might finally cure myself of MN addiction if it's acceptable to silence women who speak wittily the truth.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/05/2018 15:04

it looks like the Emma/Hannah's of MN towers are in the ascendence.

And I find it galling to be patronised or see other knowledgeable, highly experienced women patronised by people who are still wet behind the ears.

I would like to see the follow-through of the 'mum-terns' or whatever the phrase was that @JustineMumsnet used.

I have learned more from those more experienced/knowledgeable women than me, than I have through any other education in my life and I think these youngsters should show a bit more damned respect for the calibre of the users of MN .

CuppaTeaAndAJammieDodger · 03/05/2018 15:16

I’d like to know what a civil debate consist of when it comes to trans issues. Because it seems to me that TRAs are dictating to MNHQ what it is at the moment.

CuppaTeaAndAJammieDodger · 03/05/2018 15:20

PlectrumElectrum - I’m also thinking of finding an alternative home. What made MN unique is quickly being eroded and the way it’s going at the moment it will become a cookie cutter parenting forum/site where threads are modified to the hilt in fear of insulting someone (my god, I’ve been insulted a tonne of times on here!). And who have fucking done it? Men. Oh the irony of men taking down Mumsnet.

MarvelleGazelle · 03/05/2018 15:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OvaHere · 03/05/2018 16:11

This is a thread from a male forum about one of Shon's fellow transwomen, Lily Madigan.

One the first page alone Lily is called a t*y, a t*n, and a fg.

The fact none of the transactivists ever go after these male forums yet target and harass women concerned about losing ground over hard won rights says everything we need to know about what constitutes 'transphobia' for them.

They don't care about name calling, they care about non compliant women saying no to them.

kiwifarms.net/threads/liam-madigan-lily-tess-madigan.37134/

OvaHere · 03/05/2018 16:12

Doh, wrong thread sorry. That was meant for another thread. Blush

AskAuntLydia · 03/05/2018 16:47

It's relevant though.

Once that's started, are we going to see them going after gender neutral language for MN's campaigns?

"I believe them" or "I believe zie" doesn't quite have the same ring does it?

Given that men in general are believed and it's women who are not believed in our culture.

When are you going to believe us, Mumsnet? When are you going to accept that we know what we're talking about, that we've been in this movie before you and we know these transactivists will never let up on their persecution of you and the only way you can possibly deal with them, is to give them a big fat fuck off and let them know you don't give a flying fuck about their displeasure that you've failed to obey them? There's no point pandering to them, it's a waste of your time, energy and self-respect.

Nothing will ever be enough for them. You'll have to give them moderating powers before they'll be satisfied. And possibly a share in the business. And a few blow jobs as well, figuratively speaking. Or possibly even literally, who knows, lots of them seem to tweet feverishly about getting TERFS to suck their lady-dicks, presumably to punish us for our disagreement.

That sounds nice and womanly, doesn't it. Just how women always sort our their disagreements, telling each other to carry out sexual acts associated with female submission and male domination. Very laydeelike. What was it you wanted, civil and respectful debate? Good luck with that.

SophieLMumsnet · 03/05/2018 18:23

@MarvelleGazelle,

Sorry that we didn't get back to you on that - we've reinstated your post as we were overzealous. Flowers

TERFragetteCity · 03/05/2018 18:57

Can anyone see the 'mumsnetreport' twitter feed - it says it has gone. I was blocked but can't find it now.

KriticalSoul · 03/05/2018 19:04

nope, says it doesn't exist

DarthArts · 03/05/2018 19:25

It's semi explained on another thread (SF one in FWR)

The person (suspected to be someone quite well known in the pro trans twitter echo chamber) who set it up locked themselves out of one twitter account, set up another and then that got deleted - perhaps a mix up if they'd asked the first one to be deleted? Unknown tbh but all round there's been a bit of a cluster fuck. Grin

MarvelleGazelle · 03/05/2018 20:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Whatevszz · 03/05/2018 21:03

I feel so sad for us and for MN, letting certain individuals intimidate us and the site into submission - using bully-boy tactics - under the guise of a perverted use of human rights legislation. I actually feel sick tbh.

ToeToToe · 03/05/2018 21:33

The current situation could not be more different from the one I expected when we were all lauding Justine for her Times article.

PencilsInSpace · 03/05/2018 22:42

@KateMumsnet - We definitely have not issued a general invitation to Twitter to report transphobic posts.

Here are some screenshots of the MNHQ twitter account issuing a general invitation to Twitter to report transphobic posts. Like I said, we're loyal but we're not stupid. Also we can read.

As I said above, we use exactly the same judgment in considering whether posts break TGs wherever they're reported and whoever they're reported by.

There have been lots of posts deleted over the last few days that would have stood even a couple of months ago. Dictionary definitions of 'woman' and 'female', harmlessly flippant comments like 'bless' and 'yawn' and 'who?', posts respectfully discussing the (widely published and endorsed by the family involved) content of popular TV shows.

I've been most alarmed by the deletions on the thread about the tactics of paedophile organisations.

Many of us who were around in the 70's and 80's remember very well how PIE attached themselves to LGB and managed to normalise child sex abuse to a frightening degree. Those people didn't go away when PIE got dropped from the party invitations, neither did they stop recruiting new paedophiles. They've just updated their tactics for the 21st century.

If this discussion is shut down we will repeat the same mistakes and more children will be harmed.

It's an uncomfortable conversation, just as it was for LGB in the PIE days. It can't be shut down though, not if we are committed to children's welfare, which I assume we are, given this is a parenting website.

More to the point - in involving twitter, a very different process of reporting is in place. Confidentiality is gone. Doxxing is encouraged. I have read that the MN transphobia account blurs out user names. They might as well not bother while MNHQ are suggesting to them that their screenshots would be more useful if they included a link.

This is not moderation, this is inviting the whole ugly manosphere to publicly shame women who have joined and posted on your site.

We wish that civil debate was the norm on all platforms - but the bottom line is that we have no control elsewhere. What we can is to ensure that standards of civil debate are maintained on Mumsnet, and we think that's the right thing to do, because this approach will give the conversation the best hope of moving forward. We know that MNers are capable of conducting a spirited and meaningful debate within TGs - we see it all the time - so we're confident that this will not limit anyone's ability to discuss these things.

You have no control over twitter but you have invited anyone on that platform to screenshot our posts and publicly send them to you with a handy link and you have promised to look at them with a view to deletion.

Why did you do that?

Twitter doesn't let you do that, if you're not logged in you can't report anything. Your new policy is quite extraordinary. No other platform does it, with good reason.

We used to have just about the best civil debate on this topic anywhere on the internet until you did this. A MNer has received a stream of death threats and a disgusting post about her baby as a result of what you have done. Meanwhile, a huge volume of completely reasonable posts, which formed part of this civil debate you say you want to have, have been deleted. Right now, many of us are contemplating whether MN is a place where the conversation has any hope of moving forward. MN is a brilliant place for this debate because it's not an echo chamber. Anywhere we go now will have less diverse voices. If that's the price to pay for being able to use normal words and definitions to describe our class (as protected under the equality act), the oppressions we face and to fight for our own rights, then I will pay it.

I am not at all confident that my ability to discuss 'these things' is not now severely limited. I have absolutely no clue how many of the posts deleted over the past few days broke the talk guidelines. Perhaps you could explain. There are some examples above in this post.

Mumsnet encouraging brigading by Twitter TRAs
Mumsnet encouraging brigading by Twitter TRAs
Mumsnet encouraging brigading by Twitter TRAs
PencilsInSpace · 03/05/2018 22:45

We're continuing to think about further clarification of what the TGs mean in practice when applied to this issue, and we'll come back to you when we've finished that process.

The sticking point is this: if TW were not male none of this would matter. We wouldn't need to have this debate if TW were actually female. There is no way to have this debate without mentioning that TW are male because that's the whole point.

I've put this in a separate post because I expect it will be deleted.

That's where we're at and it fucking stinks.

LaSqrrl · 03/05/2018 22:58

When are you going to believe us, Mumsnet? When are you going to accept that we know what we're talking about, that we've been in this movie before you and we know these transactivists will never let up on their persecution of you and the only way you can possibly deal with them, is to give them a big fat fuck off and let them know you don't give a flying fuck about their displeasure that you've failed to obey them? There's no point pandering to them, it's a waste of your time, energy and self-respect.

Nothing will ever be enough for them. You'll have to give them moderating powers before they'll be satisfied. And possibly a share in the business.

Hear hear, AskAuntLydia. Total capitulation is their aim, anything short of that, is not enough for them. This ain't our first rodeo.

Weezol · 03/05/2018 23:00

PencilsInSpace Fantastic post. CakeBrew

MarvelleGazelle · 04/05/2018 00:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WanderinWomb · 04/05/2018 03:23

For a massive discussion forum populated mostly by women MN are displaying a whole lot of ignorance of how massive discussion forum populated mostly by women is seen by those who would wish to destroy a massive discussion forum populated mostly by women.

Encouraging public reporting on another site over which you have NO control is ridiculously foolish. Unable to check if is a previously banned poster, a hairy handed troll etc. Having your decison-making made public. Unable to deal with vexatious reporting. Any misogynous micro-celeb with a handful of followers can amplify via retweet ,retweet and retweet and start a very nasty international pile-on within minutes.
You don't even have the mods to cope with internal reports . . .

Who advised this PR disaster? Never take their advice again.