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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ here with an update on our recent moderation decisions

306 replies

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 13:44

Hi all

We thought we should come and address some of your recent points about our moderation, and particularly the worries you have about whether MNers have been taken in by a troll over the last few months, and how MNHQ has handled the issue.

Lots of you have probably missed our previous posts, so the plan is to bring everything together in one place and explain why we’ve been pretty firm about shutting down speculation on this case. We missed an opportunity to do so earlier and it’s led to lots of confusion - we’re very sorry about that, and we want to put it right now as far as we can.

So this is where we’re at: we don't have any evidence to suggest that a fraud has taken place, or that any MNers have been conned. As far as we can tell – and we have looked as carefully as we’ll ever be able to – the poster in question is the person he says he is: the father of a little boy whose mother has just died.

As we’ve said before, we can’t be 100% certain of anyone’s real life identity - it's simply not within our capabilities to know whether the person we’ve spoken to on the phone and via email and who’s been posting on the board is the same as the person of the same name and circumstances who exists elsewhere on the internet. What we do know is that we haven’t seen anything to suggest that money that kind Mumsnetters have donated has been misappropriated or misused - if we had, we would of course have involved the police.

Because MNers are understandably worried and upset, the idea has taken hold that wrongdoing has taken place. But, to be completely clear and to the best of our knowledge - it hasn’t. If you have evidence to the contrary, please get in touch with us immediately.

There have been deletions all over the shop on this - we know this must be incredibly frustrating and that loads of you still have questions and worries that you want to discuss. But we hope you’ll understand that we just can’t allow speculation or conjecture: the consequences if we do are too dreadful, for the family concerned on the one hand, but also for MNers, who are legally responsible for things they say on the boards which turn out to be unfounded.

Two posters have said on the board that they’ve received messages, off Mumsnet, which they felt were inappropriate and worrying - one of these posters reported this direct to MNHQ. We’ve been back to her, of course, but she's now told us definitively that she does not want to pursue it further and has de-regged. The conversation she describes did not take place on MN, and so there’s nowhere further that we can take that, unfortunately. We’ve of course been through the PMs on the account in question and there is nothing there that we’d characterise as harassment of any kind.

Despite all this, we suspended that individual’s account a few days ago, simply because we felt that his continued presence on MN was unlikely to do him, or MNers, any good.

We do see why the existence, for example, of a JustGiving board got people’s hackles up - but again, that’s quite a different thing from actual fraud of which we have zero evidence (and once again, please do bear in mind how serious an issue that would be, and that MNers are responsible for their own posts.)

What we really, really don’t want to do is to shut down discussion about the principles of the matter and our policies on this and other things - and when JustineMumsnet gets back from her break we’ll of course be debriefing her on the many points you’ve made (both on current and deleted threads, which we’ve been through with a fine tooth comb).

One thing that we’ve already done is to change our policy on links to crowdfunding/fundraising sites unless they benefit a registered charity - we agree that moving one of the threads in question to the Charities Noticeboard was a miss-step and that definitely won’t happen again.

We’re also looking really hard at what we say on the boards to reassure users who are worried about a potential troll - in retrospect, we shouldn’t have said that we’d gone above and beyond in checking this case out, because that implies that we can definitively validate any identity, and we can’t.

We really do want to hear what you think, and we listen hard to things that are pissing MNers off - recent examples are the changes underway on usernames1234 and the removal of the T-bar ad on mobile. We consistently turn down more ads than we take. We don’t and never ever will take money from tabloids for our content. We still put purpose before profit, and that’s not going to change - it's why a lot of the MN team have chosen to work at MN Towers. We do have to be sustainable - we’d all be out of a job otherwise - but it’s really worth having a look at the other place if you haven’t recently, to see what really chasing commercial gains looks like: it’s intrusive ads and a lot of sleb gossip.

We hope this helps to clarify our position a bit; do please do put your general thoughts here on this thread - we’ll be listening and we’ll try to help clarify anything that we haven’t covered here. Please do take on board what we’ve said about conjecture though - we’ll have to delete speculative posts if we see them here or if they’re reported on other threads.

Thanks

MNHQ

OP posts:
HoneyDragon · 09/08/2017 19:21

Oh and for the last time

Why is this still here?

RebeccaMumsnet · 09/08/2017 19:32

@HoneyDragon

Oh and for the last time

Why is this still here?

Thanks Honey, I'll look into that one now.

HoneyDragon · 09/08/2017 19:38

That's all I've been moaning about for a fortnight you know.

I like it better when I don't have to misbehave to get misogyny deleted you knowSmile

HoneyDragon · 09/08/2017 19:38

Thank you Flowers

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 19:41

@HoneyDragon

Oh and for the last time

Why is this still here?

Though also, civility is really important in these conversations we think - MNHQ staff are people doing their jobs after all.

OP posts:
ManicM · 09/08/2017 19:53

Think the post is good and welcomed to me it resolves most of the issue but then I wasn't involved with the threads.

Shame it's taking a bad turn

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 19:58

Just to pick up on one thing.

He's suspended, not banned?

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:01

@MargoChanning

Thank you for your response Kate.

I would like to know if mumsnet would consider having deletion messages on threads read on the app?

Quick update - deletion messages on the app is all done bar the shouting and will be released in the next couple of days.

OP posts:
HoneyDragon · 09/08/2017 20:04

I have been civil and polite but it is frustrating .... particularly when you're then asked to email.

I know you can't reply to reports. So when you start to see threads/posts continue to stand you think well maybe this is considered acceptable now. Do I want to be part of a forum that lets sexism and disablist stand even if they say they don't.

I've took time over the years to help you guys out. Particularly in preventing an issue with a unpleasant journalist and one of your sponsors during olympics.

I was on the the phone to MNHQ that day as well as the sponser.

I'm sorry but you guys don't have the monopoly on feeling frustrated at present.

As you put in your emails may this isn't the place for me anymore. Someone who actually gives a shit.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:08

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

Just to pick up on one thing.

He's suspended, not banned?

Can't really comment further on that at this stage I'm afraid other than to repeat that the account was suspended simply because being on MN didn't seem to be benefitting any parties. We'll have to review the situation in time.

OP posts:
Longislandicetee · 09/08/2017 20:11

In case it's been overlooked, please may I ask my question about freezing threads again?

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 20:11

Can you comment on some of my other points please? I am trying to be helpful and make suggestions Flowers

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:24

@Blingygolightly

Thank you for the response MNHQ. One question I raised was whether in future the thread can be frozen with an explanation of many reports together with deletion of libellous/offensive posts? This would stop the 100 TAATs and accusation of a cover up.

I can see your thinking Blingy. The problem is that, frequently, no-one covers themselves in glory on threads that we delete (generally, not speaking specifically about this one). And tbh we don't really think it would prevent TAATs - people would go back to the thread and pick over it, and then start a new one if they disagreed with specific posters or with MNHQs decision to freeze it. But we'll think further for sure.

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/08/2017 20:31

I can see your thinking Blingy. The problem is that, frequently, no-one covers themselves in glory on threads that we delete (generally, not speaking specifically about this one). And tbh we don't really think it would prevent TAATs - people would go back to the thread and pick over it, and then start a new one if they disagreed with specific posters or with MNHQs decision to freeze it. But we'll think further for sure.

How about my suggestion of deleting all.content but leaving thread up with just the deletion message?

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:31

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

Also (sorry brain dump) could you have a conversation with us and in the office around when a thread gathers an "Army" for want of a better words and how those who are not totally fawning to the army are treated on threads.

Because many many people didn't challenge in the threads because they knew they would be torn to shreds. Which meant when it did blow there was a real keg of force of dissatisfaction behind it

That's an interesting point. It would be quite difficult to do this proactively I think without actually seeming inflammatory ourselves. But we will definitely have a conversation here about poking our head round the door in that situation, to indicate that we don't want to see vilification of those who, for want of a better word, aren't fans. What we'd never want to do is to encourage trollhunting on the thread - that's a different thing entirely.

OP posts:
Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 20:34

Thanks
Kate.

I didn't troll hunt on the threads I posted expressing surprise at a certaine element and was slaughtered.

And then, because the threads went pfft, history was re written and those of us who had expressed disquiet were characterised as all kinds of bastards.

Which led to because because thread of rant. And didn't really help.

PicketsPocket · 09/08/2017 20:35

I think that response to Honey was both incredibly rude, and totally unnecessary. No wonder you're haemorrhaging posters if that's the attitude.

EvansOvalPies · 09/08/2017 20:35

I've had a couple of my posts deleted just recently. They weren't offensive, not even a swear-word, it is just because I didn't agree with someone. As was someone else in one of those threads. That poster also was only stating an opinion, she wasn't being insulting at all. (In one of those threads, I was told to Fuck Off, yet that post remains). Maybe just because I didn't report it. Deletion of posts seems to be a little indiscriminate. How many times will my (and other people's) inoffensive posts be deleted before I'm (we're) suspended, I wonder?

Furthermore, we used to get a message via email from MNHQ telling us if a post had been deleted. We don't even get that any longer. Any reason for it? I'd like to know if a post of mine has been deleted, as I usually don't scroll back on a thread to check, so it can come as a bit of a surprise when you do find out. No rhyme nor reason for it, usually.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:37

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

How about my suggestion of deleting all.content but leaving thread up with just the deletion message?

Sorry, ItsAllGoingToBeFine, I didn't quite follow you the first time. Currently the deletion message does stay up, but the posts can't be seen. Is that what you meant or something different?

OP posts:
Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 20:37

What I'm trying to say - and not saying it well.

Posters used to be allowed to call bullshit. They said this isn't true it doesn't make sense.

It then went a bit far.

So you banned troll hunting.

And that has now become to an extent that any kind of questioning is deleted as troll hunting.

Which means no one can ask any questions.

Do there are loads of people who would like to ask questions who are sitting on their hands.

And the pressure is building because they see what they think is bullshit being allowed to carry on and suck in more people.

So when it blows it blows huge.

AppleBlossomTimeNow · 09/08/2017 20:40

No fair on HoneyDragon - she doesn't deserve that!!!

AppleBlossomTimeNow · 09/08/2017 20:42

But other than that I feel like things are going to move in the right direction, which is a big relief. I watched this unfold from afar as a MN Noob and it was pretty awful and mostly avoidable.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/08/2017 20:45

Sorry, ItsAllGoingToBeFine, I didn't quite follow you the first time. Currently the deletion message does stay up, but the posts can't be seen. Is that what you meant or something different?

Sorry. I thought the entire thing was removed after a bit Blush

Viviennemary · 09/08/2017 20:45

Thank you for this full explanation. Although I didn't take part in the original discussion thread I was horrified at the thought that posters may have been scammed. And it was mystifying and frustrating when every single thread bringing up these concerns was deleted. I think anybody banned over raising concerns should be invited back. Because we all know what happens if people don't raise concerns.

SecretNutellaFix · 09/08/2017 20:46

So to clarify- you suspend people when you have no idea for how long their posting privileges are revoked and your policy is not to send an email explaining?
You ignore repeated reporting of the same post by a poster whose help HQ has actively sought in the past and then you round off with that particular comment, which in my opinion is breathtakingly rude Kate and serves as a very good reminder why some people have problems reading the tone of posts.