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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ here with an update on our recent moderation decisions

306 replies

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 13:44

Hi all

We thought we should come and address some of your recent points about our moderation, and particularly the worries you have about whether MNers have been taken in by a troll over the last few months, and how MNHQ has handled the issue.

Lots of you have probably missed our previous posts, so the plan is to bring everything together in one place and explain why we’ve been pretty firm about shutting down speculation on this case. We missed an opportunity to do so earlier and it’s led to lots of confusion - we’re very sorry about that, and we want to put it right now as far as we can.

So this is where we’re at: we don't have any evidence to suggest that a fraud has taken place, or that any MNers have been conned. As far as we can tell – and we have looked as carefully as we’ll ever be able to – the poster in question is the person he says he is: the father of a little boy whose mother has just died.

As we’ve said before, we can’t be 100% certain of anyone’s real life identity - it's simply not within our capabilities to know whether the person we’ve spoken to on the phone and via email and who’s been posting on the board is the same as the person of the same name and circumstances who exists elsewhere on the internet. What we do know is that we haven’t seen anything to suggest that money that kind Mumsnetters have donated has been misappropriated or misused - if we had, we would of course have involved the police.

Because MNers are understandably worried and upset, the idea has taken hold that wrongdoing has taken place. But, to be completely clear and to the best of our knowledge - it hasn’t. If you have evidence to the contrary, please get in touch with us immediately.

There have been deletions all over the shop on this - we know this must be incredibly frustrating and that loads of you still have questions and worries that you want to discuss. But we hope you’ll understand that we just can’t allow speculation or conjecture: the consequences if we do are too dreadful, for the family concerned on the one hand, but also for MNers, who are legally responsible for things they say on the boards which turn out to be unfounded.

Two posters have said on the board that they’ve received messages, off Mumsnet, which they felt were inappropriate and worrying - one of these posters reported this direct to MNHQ. We’ve been back to her, of course, but she's now told us definitively that she does not want to pursue it further and has de-regged. The conversation she describes did not take place on MN, and so there’s nowhere further that we can take that, unfortunately. We’ve of course been through the PMs on the account in question and there is nothing there that we’d characterise as harassment of any kind.

Despite all this, we suspended that individual’s account a few days ago, simply because we felt that his continued presence on MN was unlikely to do him, or MNers, any good.

We do see why the existence, for example, of a JustGiving board got people’s hackles up - but again, that’s quite a different thing from actual fraud of which we have zero evidence (and once again, please do bear in mind how serious an issue that would be, and that MNers are responsible for their own posts.)

What we really, really don’t want to do is to shut down discussion about the principles of the matter and our policies on this and other things - and when JustineMumsnet gets back from her break we’ll of course be debriefing her on the many points you’ve made (both on current and deleted threads, which we’ve been through with a fine tooth comb).

One thing that we’ve already done is to change our policy on links to crowdfunding/fundraising sites unless they benefit a registered charity - we agree that moving one of the threads in question to the Charities Noticeboard was a miss-step and that definitely won’t happen again.

We’re also looking really hard at what we say on the boards to reassure users who are worried about a potential troll - in retrospect, we shouldn’t have said that we’d gone above and beyond in checking this case out, because that implies that we can definitively validate any identity, and we can’t.

We really do want to hear what you think, and we listen hard to things that are pissing MNers off - recent examples are the changes underway on usernames1234 and the removal of the T-bar ad on mobile. We consistently turn down more ads than we take. We don’t and never ever will take money from tabloids for our content. We still put purpose before profit, and that’s not going to change - it's why a lot of the MN team have chosen to work at MN Towers. We do have to be sustainable - we’d all be out of a job otherwise - but it’s really worth having a look at the other place if you haven’t recently, to see what really chasing commercial gains looks like: it’s intrusive ads and a lot of sleb gossip.

We hope this helps to clarify our position a bit; do please do put your general thoughts here on this thread - we’ll be listening and we’ll try to help clarify anything that we haven’t covered here. Please do take on board what we’ve said about conjecture though - we’ll have to delete speculative posts if we see them here or if they’re reported on other threads.

Thanks

MNHQ

OP posts:
Soubriquet · 09/08/2017 13:46

Thank you for your response

PandorasXbox · 09/08/2017 13:59

Thanks for the update Kate. Seems reasonable all round to me.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 14:06

Thank you.

That addresses the points I was repeatedly making

If mn mods had put the ordinary message on the thread and NOT moved the other thread with the ask in it to the charities board then a lot of this could have been avoided.

Can you please look at perhaps locking threads rather than deleting them. For two reasons.

As I reported to you, there was an almost immediate re-writing of history and the new threads that sprung up said that people who had posted concerns were all kinds of things that they simply weren't. (Monsters and evil were used)

(As an aside I didn't say the original threads were monsters and evil in my report and I would actual like to correct the statement made by hq on another thread around that. Because that is still smarting that hq stated something so wrong about what I said)

Also it would stop the millions and millions of other threads - and some of hq statements around the events were on deleted threads.

MumIsRunningAMarathon · 09/08/2017 14:15

Thanks HQ

A usual storm in a teacup from the usual suspects

OhYouBadBadKitten · 09/08/2017 14:16

Thank you Kate.

At least one person I trust on here says they have been banned for repeatedly reporting concerns rather than troll hunting. They were left very hurt by this, especially as it seemed to come out of the blue. Please can you clarify your policy when people repeatedly report concerns because they feel an issue is serious.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 14:24

To echo what OYBBK has just said. I reported concerns about what I saw as the re writing of history and posters being characterised as monsters when they weren't.

I was told by a member of hq to feel free to take my concerns to the thread.

I do feel that wouldn't have been particularly helpful at the time.

Can you tell us if we are meant to do this or if we should report?

(Sorry for stilted tone trying to word this in such a way as to not refer to anything that has been happening and he measured and unemotive).

Also. Post from Blingy that I have cut and paste I think is worth reposting here

Yesterday 08:54 Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

Post from blingy on antiher thread :

Today 07:54 Blingygolightly

we hope that most of you can understand that we're just not set up to do forensic detective work

I totally agree with you MNHQ. However, from a business perspective, Mumsnet had income of £7m last year and made profit of over £2m. You're not exactly a kitchen table company anymore so you need to review how you operate and your risks and procedures as a large company.

I posted on one of the many deleted threads that Mumsnet really needs to look at it's internal risk policies as to how you handle these situations. You have clearly made a quick decision over the charity/crowdfunding thing but there are much larger issues. This kind of situation is going to crop up repeatedly and if there's a lesson to be learned it's how you handle a long running thread with repeated reporting by many many posters over a 4 month period. Do you think, hand on heart that you have treated those posters well, both at the time they reported and over the weekend? Imvho I would say not, and that's why you have posters who are emotional about it. In their anger, many posters have probably put themselves in danger of being sued and I totally get that this is one of the reasons why some threads might have been pulled, but you never said this. In fact the message by @katemumsnet only makes an oblique reference to that possibility.

(An aside to mumsnetters, I have said repeatedly over the last few days that I believe the poster in the thread concerned was exactly who they said they were. Mumsnet believe this too, as do other posters. Think for one moment before you post whether you can afford to be sued for defamation and slander before you throw accusations around, especially those posters who were naming the couple concerned or responding after they had been named).

Back to MNHQ: it didn't take me very long to conclude the story checked out using online resources (check the deleted threads as to how i got there) and quite frankly any one of your 84 employees could have done the same. Equally, if you didn't feel savvy enough to do this, you might want to use a v small portion of those £2m of profits to keep an investigative company on a retainer who can quickly get to the bottom of things for you).

However, just because someone is exactly who they say they are doesn't mean that the situation presented is exactly as they say it is on a thread or that all material facts have been disclosed on the thread. Think carefully about what message your deletion statements and official statements convey either directly or subliminally.

I would also add that for a company that makes £2m profit running a 24 hour website where things are likely to blow up on a weekend, is strictly keeping office hours or having a "weekend crew" the right thing to do? Because I know at my company, our head of PR would have been straight on to this, advising management on how to respond. Do you have the same set up?

This will absolutely blow over but where is @justinemumsnet. If she's on holiday then fair enough tell everyone that but her silence on this issue also conveys a message to mumsnetters.

Final point, mumsnetters aren't stupid people. That's why you make £7m of income from them because advertisers are keen to engage with them (and pay you £4.5m) and get insights from or about mumsnetters (and pay £1m for the privilege). I guess the question you need to ask yourselves is over the last few days, weeks and months have you treated mumsnetters as if they are smart people from whom you make millions? Also, our PMs aren't exactly private to you. If you're getting a lot of reports about a thread or a poster then perhaps checking their PMs on a regular basis ought to be part of your risk procedures?

At the end of the day you're a business, you don't owe a duty of care to anyone, whatever you say about being a supportive environment for parents. Might it have been better at some point when the link to the foundation was first posted, to freeze the thread and say "we have had a ton of posters reporting so we need to freeze the thread while we look into their reports?". Could you not have privately said to the poster, okay, we believe you are who you say you are because you can prove it but something isn't quite adding up for posters, including many medical professionals so in this case, given you say you're a wealthy businessman, I think getting support through counselling might be the best route for you. And sorry for your loss.

Just a few thoughts!

I think that is a fantastic post that points hq to where they could learn things

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 14:28

@OhYouBadBadKitten

Thank you Kate.

At least one person I trust on here says they have been banned for repeatedly reporting concerns rather than troll hunting. They were left very hurt by this, especially as it seemed to come out of the blue. Please can you clarify your policy when people repeatedly report concerns because they feel an issue is serious.

Of course - we really, honestly and truly do not ban for reporting; that's how we moderate and exactly what we advise posters to do when they have concerns.

I guess if a poster persistently reports the same thing and is told straightforwardly to stop doing so, we might suspend? But that would be for not doing as requested, rather than for reporting per se; in all other circs there will have been another reason for the ban.

Obviously not fair for me to go into more detail but if it's the person I'm thinking of, it was a temporary suspension and it wasn't related to the case we're discussing now. We'll be getting in touch soon to lift it - we'll be happy to explain to her the precision reason.

OP posts:
PigletWasPoohsFriend · 09/08/2017 14:35

Thank you Kate.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 14:39

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

I reported concerns about what I saw as the re writing of history and posters being characterised as monsters when they weren't.

I was told by a member of hq to feel free to take my concerns to the thread.

I do feel that wouldn't have been particularly helpful at the time.

Can you tell us if we are meant to do this or if we should report?

If you've got concerns about trolling, or you think that Talk Guidelines are being broken, do report. If you think that other posters are wrong about a given issue, that's usually something to debate on the thread.

In this case, it looks as though there's been some v unfortunate confusion. We were suggesting that you tackled what you felt was the rewriting of history on the thread. We'd never ask anyone to investigate trolling on the thread -that's opposite of what we want and we're sorry if we weren't clear.

OP posts:
TheHeraldOfAndraste · 09/08/2017 14:39

Thank you for this kate. Its a very measured response and its gone some way into restoring my faith in HQ.

Would HQ be able to address issues with disabilism in the near future? I understand you're busy with all this stuff right now but some reassurance for the SN community here would be very appreciated.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 09/08/2017 14:42

You are right Kate, it was a different case.

I wonder if there can be clearer communication when people are suspended or banned? People report being suddenly locked out without access or explanation and very delayed responses to emails. I would imagine this would be rather distressing when the reason the person has had action taken against them because they are already feeling emotional about an issue. I obviously don't know the details behind any cases, but it seems to be a frequent complaint.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 14:43

Kate. I have messaged via the report button on your last post to explain my issue more fully so as not to derail this thread.

sobeyondthehills · 09/08/2017 14:44

Just one quick question, if we are legally responsible for everything we say on the boards, then why are we not legally responsible for the contents when they get lifted by certain newspapers?

Or am I missing something really obvious

Polter · 09/08/2017 14:44

Thank you KateMN for a very measured response to the weekend's debacle.

I personally am very concerned about the disablism issue and would like to see some more pro-active moderation, and perhaps some clearer guidelines around this issue. MN has always been a haven for disabled posters and posters of disabled kids, but it's really not feeling like that at the moment.

BoreOfWhabylon · 09/08/2017 14:45

Thank you very much Kate.

I do think, fwiw, that MNHQ might want to revisit the 'what constitutes a troll' policy though. I think if something looks well dodgy and is sucking in loads of posters then even if there's no proof (eg links to PBP) it's better to err on the side of caution, rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I don't include spoof, funny, exaggerated 'tall stories' posts in this, btw. Everyone just has fun on those threads, with a willing suspension of disbelief. (and Classics would be very empty)

I hope the MNer who was banned/suspended will rejoin soon.

0nline · 09/08/2017 14:45

There's a thread here about policy changes where I've made some potential suggestions (that could do with being ripped apart for unintended consequences) from the perspective of non-site-member relatives dealing with a death that comes with an additional online shock.

I don't want to re-post the post again. It's massive and takes up a lot of visual thread landscape.

One of the things I think it is worth mulling over is what actions can be taken to delete identifiers that can lead a bereaved family to an online discussion centered on their lost loved one.

There's not much you can do about another member seeing a thread, going 2+2=4 and passing on a link. But there might be a way to minimise a random google of a name throwing up an unexpected punch to the thrust.

People, members and admin, have had an upset and in some cases fingers nastily burnt. But most of them will feel better relatively soon.

The recovery time for family members who are not on site, have no part in discussions, played no role in their loved one being a topic... IME the recovery from that tends to be longer. With that in mind, when things are calmer and less busy, I think it might be a good idea to have a look at ways to make the best possible fist of avoiding kids, parents, siblings and the extended family of members become inadvertent collatoral damage.

I doubt if there is any way to engineer the regs so it can never happen. But, seeing overlaps between what has happened and my own situation that occurred on other platforms, I think there are ways the risks can be notably reduced.

Polter · 09/08/2017 14:48

I posted this on one of the deleted threads and I CBA to type it again.

MNHQ here with an update on our recent moderation decisions
GinSoakedTwitchyPony · 09/08/2017 14:48

Thank you Kate.

MadnessAbounds · 09/08/2017 14:50

Hi Kate

Thank you for taking the time to clarify matters further. One question I posed here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2999683-Why-has-Stratters-been-banned-for-reporting-suspected-Trolls-as-per-MN-policy?msgid=71015371#71015371 (post on Mon 7th @ 13.33) has not yet been answered, and it read as follows:

@AmyGMumsnet Could you confirm what process HQ has when imposing potentially controversial bans? Is it a decision of an individual Mod, or must more than one Mod agree to the ban?

Given what Stratters wrote (that she would comply with Katherine's request), it strikes me that perhaps someone was having a bad day and got a bit trigger happy with the ban button ...?

Some of the recent bans have raised eyebrows, and as mentioned above, some people are in the dark as to what they did wrong.

Are you able to answer the question now?

BoreOfWhabylon · 09/08/2017 14:51

Polter that is EXACTLY what I was trying to say in my previous post, only much better articulated.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 14:52

@sobeyondthehills

Just one quick question, if we are legally responsible for everything we say on the boards, then why are we not legally responsible for the contents when they get lifted by certain newspapers?

Or am I missing something really obvious

No, I don't think you're missing anything obvious, Sobeyond! As far as I understand it, these situations are governed by two parts of the law with completely different approaches. The first is libel and defamation and relates to reputational damage to a third party, and the second is copyright, and the issue of how much you can lift as a quotation or to use as 'fair comment'. As I think Justine's said on other threads, you'd need pretty deep pockets to get the copyright issue clarified in court, with no certainty of a positive outcome I'm afraid.

OP posts:
DottyBlue2 · 09/08/2017 14:52

🍪

PoppyPopcorn · 09/08/2017 14:56

Thanks MNHQ for clarifying all this massive mess.

I wasn't involved in any of the recent threads but I've been around the internet long enough to know that there are some very odd people out there.

One suggestion I would make is a stronger "be wary" message when it comes to the comment MNHQ often post. I know there's a balance to be struck between welcoming new posters and giving warnings, but with Christmas around hte corner I'm expecting a rush of "can't afford the kids' presents" threads as there was last year.

BoreOfWhabylon · 09/08/2017 14:56

I think regarding banning, the poster concerned should by emailed by MNHQ to give reasons for the ban/suspension.

I don't mean those who have clearly joined to blatantly troll, e.g. willy pics, roaring around the boards posting highly offensive stuff. Obviously they deserve to just have to door slammed in their faces.

DancingLedge · 09/08/2017 14:57

Thanks for this

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