Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ here with an update on our recent moderation decisions

306 replies

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 13:44

Hi all

We thought we should come and address some of your recent points about our moderation, and particularly the worries you have about whether MNers have been taken in by a troll over the last few months, and how MNHQ has handled the issue.

Lots of you have probably missed our previous posts, so the plan is to bring everything together in one place and explain why we’ve been pretty firm about shutting down speculation on this case. We missed an opportunity to do so earlier and it’s led to lots of confusion - we’re very sorry about that, and we want to put it right now as far as we can.

So this is where we’re at: we don't have any evidence to suggest that a fraud has taken place, or that any MNers have been conned. As far as we can tell – and we have looked as carefully as we’ll ever be able to – the poster in question is the person he says he is: the father of a little boy whose mother has just died.

As we’ve said before, we can’t be 100% certain of anyone’s real life identity - it's simply not within our capabilities to know whether the person we’ve spoken to on the phone and via email and who’s been posting on the board is the same as the person of the same name and circumstances who exists elsewhere on the internet. What we do know is that we haven’t seen anything to suggest that money that kind Mumsnetters have donated has been misappropriated or misused - if we had, we would of course have involved the police.

Because MNers are understandably worried and upset, the idea has taken hold that wrongdoing has taken place. But, to be completely clear and to the best of our knowledge - it hasn’t. If you have evidence to the contrary, please get in touch with us immediately.

There have been deletions all over the shop on this - we know this must be incredibly frustrating and that loads of you still have questions and worries that you want to discuss. But we hope you’ll understand that we just can’t allow speculation or conjecture: the consequences if we do are too dreadful, for the family concerned on the one hand, but also for MNers, who are legally responsible for things they say on the boards which turn out to be unfounded.

Two posters have said on the board that they’ve received messages, off Mumsnet, which they felt were inappropriate and worrying - one of these posters reported this direct to MNHQ. We’ve been back to her, of course, but she's now told us definitively that she does not want to pursue it further and has de-regged. The conversation she describes did not take place on MN, and so there’s nowhere further that we can take that, unfortunately. We’ve of course been through the PMs on the account in question and there is nothing there that we’d characterise as harassment of any kind.

Despite all this, we suspended that individual’s account a few days ago, simply because we felt that his continued presence on MN was unlikely to do him, or MNers, any good.

We do see why the existence, for example, of a JustGiving board got people’s hackles up - but again, that’s quite a different thing from actual fraud of which we have zero evidence (and once again, please do bear in mind how serious an issue that would be, and that MNers are responsible for their own posts.)

What we really, really don’t want to do is to shut down discussion about the principles of the matter and our policies on this and other things - and when JustineMumsnet gets back from her break we’ll of course be debriefing her on the many points you’ve made (both on current and deleted threads, which we’ve been through with a fine tooth comb).

One thing that we’ve already done is to change our policy on links to crowdfunding/fundraising sites unless they benefit a registered charity - we agree that moving one of the threads in question to the Charities Noticeboard was a miss-step and that definitely won’t happen again.

We’re also looking really hard at what we say on the boards to reassure users who are worried about a potential troll - in retrospect, we shouldn’t have said that we’d gone above and beyond in checking this case out, because that implies that we can definitively validate any identity, and we can’t.

We really do want to hear what you think, and we listen hard to things that are pissing MNers off - recent examples are the changes underway on usernames1234 and the removal of the T-bar ad on mobile. We consistently turn down more ads than we take. We don’t and never ever will take money from tabloids for our content. We still put purpose before profit, and that’s not going to change - it's why a lot of the MN team have chosen to work at MN Towers. We do have to be sustainable - we’d all be out of a job otherwise - but it’s really worth having a look at the other place if you haven’t recently, to see what really chasing commercial gains looks like: it’s intrusive ads and a lot of sleb gossip.

We hope this helps to clarify our position a bit; do please do put your general thoughts here on this thread - we’ll be listening and we’ll try to help clarify anything that we haven’t covered here. Please do take on board what we’ve said about conjecture though - we’ll have to delete speculative posts if we see them here or if they’re reported on other threads.

Thanks

MNHQ

OP posts:
SumThucker · 09/08/2017 20:48

I'm adding a "rude to Honey", especially coming immediately after her apology.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:52

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

that has now become to an extent that any kind of questioning is deleted as troll hunting.

Which means no one can ask any questions.

Do there are loads of people who would like to ask questions who are sitting on their hands.

We know it can be really frustrating but people don't have to sit on their hands - they can report. We really do look carefully at all reports of suspect posting. We won't always be able to take action in the way the person reporting would like - in all honesty the result would be lots of bans of people who are genuinely seeking support and that wouldn't be right either. Sorry.

OP posts:
PicketsPocket · 09/08/2017 20:54

A gentle reminder that without your posters you wouldn't have a Mumsnet seems to be timely.

I can't imagine your advertisers are full of joy at this latest debacle, particularly as it appears to be the original 'witty and intelligent' posters, that your advertising revenue is based on, that are leaving.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 21:00

I'm clearly not getting my point across.

The pendulum has swung so hard to no troll hunting that no one can say anything remotely questioning or gently remind posters that not everyone is always who they seem.

Hq weren't on every thread and the one post of warning was early on.

Those who wanted to raise concerns were unable to for various reasons.

And no harm but reporting and hearing nothing means that we don't know wjats happening which leads to a feeling of powerlessness.

I wasn't on the threads til the end but the other side of the army is those who are sitting on their hands.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 21:01

And your "sorry" there sounds to me as if you are dismissing me.

PicketsPocket · 09/08/2017 21:03

Plus it's been made very obvious that you're banning posters for reporting, which is ridiculous. You can't survive without posters, if this isn't dealt with properly all you're going to be left with is a transient base of new mums drifting in then buggering off to other well known sites once they realise they're merely cash cows.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:08

@PicketsPocket

Plus it's been made very obvious that you're banning posters for reporting, which is ridiculous..

I don't think we have at all Pickets - I specifically said upthread that we absolutely don't ban people for reporting and that there's always something else in play?

OP posts:
Longislandicetee · 09/08/2017 21:11

Thank you. Another question. Is the poster who was using the name becausebecausebecause banned? I did report and say I hope she wasn't banned but understandably no one responded. I don't know her at all btw!

More generally, if there are people who were banned over the last few days in relation to the threads and TAATs, will you be reviewing their banning? It did get v heated!

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:13

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

And your "sorry" there sounds to me as if you are dismissing me.

It wasn't intended to - it ws a genuine if rueful acknowledgment that there isn't really a solution to the problem you identify. Whatever we do, someone is going to be frustrated or unhappy - and I can see your point that sometimes there's a keg-explosion. But on balance we really believe that banning trollhunting and always advising people to report is overall more beneficial to more people.

OP posts:
PicketsPocket · 09/08/2017 21:14

Oh you do Kate. I can promise you that happens. Do you honestly think MN emails don't get shared around outwith of here? There's at least four off board groups I know of with all of one poster's emails posted.

Please don't try and sweep this under the rug. Posters have and are banned for reporting.

JennyHolzersGhost · 09/08/2017 21:18

You don't send out emails about being banned, you just don't.

You banned me a while ago (for posting a thread which was poorly phrased at a sensitive time). I'd never been any trouble, never come to the attention of the mods. I wasn't even engaging in fights on threads, I posted about fluffy stuff.
Instead of having a quick look at my posting history and thinking 'hmm this seems a little incendiary, perhaps we'll suspend the thread while we check in on this poster' you banned me, didn't bother to tell me, then when I contacted to you say I couldn't log in I got a mealy mouthed 'explanation' that you'd suspended me because of that thread and I was reinstated. It left a very bad taste. If that was suspension then how many good posters are you losing through your lack of explanation or warning ?

It is beyond belief that a business with £7m turnover does not have a proper banning procedure - it's just a basic form for a mod to fill in. Dear x, you have been banned/suspended for x amount of time because xyz.
How hard can it be ?!

I have said this before but I'll say it again: you need to get a lot more professional, quickly. I know you're trying to raise money from external investors. They won't be impressed with this kind of thing.

PicketsPocket · 09/08/2017 21:21

You were lucky to get a response, other posters have emailed and not even got a reply.

It's such a basic courtesy.

MsGameandWatching · 09/08/2017 21:22

I've seen a thoroughly brutal email from MN. There was no warning before though they claimed they had. Only about four lines basically saying off you go, you were warned. There was no warning and the message smacked of we just want rid of you and so we will say what we need to, to justify it. This was a poster who had been on the boards for about six years and clearly used MN as a bit of a life line. This was for ONE supposed episode of "Troll Hunting" after repeated reporting a were ignored. It was a name I didn't recognise signing off on it to be fair though. We did wonder if it was a power crazy someone who hadn't been around for long.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:22

@PicketsPocket

Oh you do Kate. I can promise you that happens. Do you honestly think MN emails don't get shared around outwith of here? There's at least four off board groups I know of with all of one poster's emails posted.

Please don't try and sweep this under the rug. Posters have and are banned for reporting.

That's just not true I'm afraid. That may be how you are interpreting the mails you are sharing, but it's absolutely not the case that we ban people for genuinely and in good faith reporting their concerns about another poster.

We've banned people for following others with whom they have an ongoing beef around the boards seeking out stuff to report - but only after warnings, and as I said upthread in that case they're actually banned for refusing to change the behaviour when asked.

OP posts:
MsGameandWatching · 09/08/2017 21:24

And it was made quite clear this was a permanent ban by the way with no right to reply.

Noregretsatall · 09/08/2017 21:25

The only thing I would say is please put a proper deletion message visible on the app. All you get is "this thread has been deleted by MN" which does leave people wondering - and probably starting a TAAT!

^^This. Very frustrating.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 21:25

What will happen if you don't sort this is that this will become like all rhenoher parenting websites.

It will be a site people go to for a few years and then leave.

I thought mumsnet wanted to be different. I thought it wanted to be more.

You are going about keeping it like that all the wrong way, in my opinion.

PelorusJack · 09/08/2017 21:26

I suspect a lot of posters do get warning and ban info emails from MNHQ but that they end up in their Uni or trash folders.

My troll hunter warning and suspension email both ended up automatically being deleted. It was only when I went looking for them that I found them. Luckily I was able to reinstate them. I bet the same thing happens with other posters.

PicketsPocket · 09/08/2017 21:26

Oh Kate.

That simply isn't true. You and I both know that Stratters stated very clearly that she would stick to the talk guidelines. The emails are out there, in the public domain, for everyone to see, and she makes it very, very clear that she will do as they ask. Yet you still banned her. For reporting a poster who many consider to be not only a bully, but a liar and a fantasist. For not backing down.

MNHQ really needs to start listening to its posters.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 21:26

The deletion message doesn't bother me. It used to be we never got fancy messages 😳

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:35

We're really keen to get the message across that we don't ban for reporting, because that's literally how we moderate MN - via reports.

But on the wider question of banning and how and why we do it, we're going to have to agree to disagree (plus it's a bit off-topic to the subject of the thread).

In all honesty, we do have to be able to ban either temporarily or permanently posters who we think are making the place less of a pleasant place to be for other posters, or who are goady or inflammatory and won't stop - and sometimes, ones who we just don't think we're ever going to be able to make happy, because it conflicts with our other values or our need to keep MN a happy place overall.

We do that in various ways, and of course it's not going to be pleasant for the person in question - but by the time we get there, they will have failed to take multiple opportunities to stop the behaviour, so in all honesty I don't think they can reasonably be too cross about the manner in which their suspension takes place.

OP posts:
Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 21:36

One of the things that made mumsnet unique was that it was largely poster regulated.

Posts were only moderated following report and mumsnet relied on the community to police itself with minimal intervention.

Changing that model changes the nature of mumsnet and it may be that there are unintended consequences in terms of the type of poster that is comfortable with the new form of moderation which is not as if was when they first joined the site.

In my opinion. Mumsnet was unique and what made it brilliant was the fantastic intelligent and funny as fuck posters.

If you're changing their ability to post too much - and you are and have been for some time - you're going to end up with a different demographic of member and lose what makes mumsnet unique.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:38

@PicketsPocket

Stratters stated very clearly that she would stick to the talk guidelines.

We read her response as an indication that she was not going to stop following that poster round the boards, and that's what caused the ban. We'd obviously rather not discuss individual cases but you're implying that we're being dishonest, and we're not.

OP posts:
SussexMist · 09/08/2017 21:41

Jeez...this is just an anonymous forum...take everything with a pinch of salt....better still turn off your phones and tablets and talk to a real person.

JennyHolzersGhost · 09/08/2017 21:41

"by the time we get there, they will have failed to take multiple opportunities to stop the behaviour"

What opportunities was I given to stop my behaviour ? What behaviour exactly was it that I should have stopped ? I was never told even after contacting MNHQ of any wider pattern of behaviour that had given rise to concern. I hope there wasn't any.

For an inadvertently inappropriate thread I'd have expected to have the thread deleted and a warning or preferably inquiry from MNHQ ('did you mean to be so troll-y?' Type of thing) but an insta ban with no prior form and no explanation is pretty upsetting to be on the receiving end of, if you don't mind me saying so.
I'm still here so I guess you can see that as a vote of confidence in the wider MN world - it's a valuable site which is why I sought to be unbanned.