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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ here with an update on our recent moderation decisions

306 replies

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 13:44

Hi all

We thought we should come and address some of your recent points about our moderation, and particularly the worries you have about whether MNers have been taken in by a troll over the last few months, and how MNHQ has handled the issue.

Lots of you have probably missed our previous posts, so the plan is to bring everything together in one place and explain why we’ve been pretty firm about shutting down speculation on this case. We missed an opportunity to do so earlier and it’s led to lots of confusion - we’re very sorry about that, and we want to put it right now as far as we can.

So this is where we’re at: we don't have any evidence to suggest that a fraud has taken place, or that any MNers have been conned. As far as we can tell – and we have looked as carefully as we’ll ever be able to – the poster in question is the person he says he is: the father of a little boy whose mother has just died.

As we’ve said before, we can’t be 100% certain of anyone’s real life identity - it's simply not within our capabilities to know whether the person we’ve spoken to on the phone and via email and who’s been posting on the board is the same as the person of the same name and circumstances who exists elsewhere on the internet. What we do know is that we haven’t seen anything to suggest that money that kind Mumsnetters have donated has been misappropriated or misused - if we had, we would of course have involved the police.

Because MNers are understandably worried and upset, the idea has taken hold that wrongdoing has taken place. But, to be completely clear and to the best of our knowledge - it hasn’t. If you have evidence to the contrary, please get in touch with us immediately.

There have been deletions all over the shop on this - we know this must be incredibly frustrating and that loads of you still have questions and worries that you want to discuss. But we hope you’ll understand that we just can’t allow speculation or conjecture: the consequences if we do are too dreadful, for the family concerned on the one hand, but also for MNers, who are legally responsible for things they say on the boards which turn out to be unfounded.

Two posters have said on the board that they’ve received messages, off Mumsnet, which they felt were inappropriate and worrying - one of these posters reported this direct to MNHQ. We’ve been back to her, of course, but she's now told us definitively that she does not want to pursue it further and has de-regged. The conversation she describes did not take place on MN, and so there’s nowhere further that we can take that, unfortunately. We’ve of course been through the PMs on the account in question and there is nothing there that we’d characterise as harassment of any kind.

Despite all this, we suspended that individual’s account a few days ago, simply because we felt that his continued presence on MN was unlikely to do him, or MNers, any good.

We do see why the existence, for example, of a JustGiving board got people’s hackles up - but again, that’s quite a different thing from actual fraud of which we have zero evidence (and once again, please do bear in mind how serious an issue that would be, and that MNers are responsible for their own posts.)

What we really, really don’t want to do is to shut down discussion about the principles of the matter and our policies on this and other things - and when JustineMumsnet gets back from her break we’ll of course be debriefing her on the many points you’ve made (both on current and deleted threads, which we’ve been through with a fine tooth comb).

One thing that we’ve already done is to change our policy on links to crowdfunding/fundraising sites unless they benefit a registered charity - we agree that moving one of the threads in question to the Charities Noticeboard was a miss-step and that definitely won’t happen again.

We’re also looking really hard at what we say on the boards to reassure users who are worried about a potential troll - in retrospect, we shouldn’t have said that we’d gone above and beyond in checking this case out, because that implies that we can definitively validate any identity, and we can’t.

We really do want to hear what you think, and we listen hard to things that are pissing MNers off - recent examples are the changes underway on usernames1234 and the removal of the T-bar ad on mobile. We consistently turn down more ads than we take. We don’t and never ever will take money from tabloids for our content. We still put purpose before profit, and that’s not going to change - it's why a lot of the MN team have chosen to work at MN Towers. We do have to be sustainable - we’d all be out of a job otherwise - but it’s really worth having a look at the other place if you haven’t recently, to see what really chasing commercial gains looks like: it’s intrusive ads and a lot of sleb gossip.

We hope this helps to clarify our position a bit; do please do put your general thoughts here on this thread - we’ll be listening and we’ll try to help clarify anything that we haven’t covered here. Please do take on board what we’ve said about conjecture though - we’ll have to delete speculative posts if we see them here or if they’re reported on other threads.

Thanks

MNHQ

OP posts:
Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 16:20

Passive aggressive I agree with the general point you are making.

Couple of small specifics I disagree with.

The poster who said they knew the person in real life never actually said that. They too were very careful in their language. And deliberately vague.
And hq did say that they had gone above and beyond - but my point above refers to that. They can verify an identity. They cannot verify motive. And a crowd funding page is not a charity.

VladmirsPoutine · 09/08/2017 16:26

They can verify an identity. They cannot verify motive.

They can verify identity only as far as. They can't unless they send someone to the actual house and check on them. If I start a thread saying I'm stranded in America and need money to get home - sure MN can check if I'm posting from UK or US or wherever else via my ISP. But unless they actually literally send someone to verify my story then they can't be 100% certain. The onus would be on others to decide if they wanted to support me or not. I could tell you that I have 5 kids which haven't eaten for days (I don't) but the point is that it's not MN's business to police who posters send money to - they can warn and often do that not everyone on the internet is who they say they are. But the end point rests with you. It's not their issue if someone is scammed. People have to stop looking for reasons to blame others for their poor life choices.

SerfTerf · 09/08/2017 16:29

People have to stop looking for reasons to blame others for their poor life choices.

Poutine I don't think anyone who was taken in is here.

Most of us who are taking an interest and posting about it were alarmed at the whole thing from the start.

So to be fair nobody is blaming anyone else for their poor choices.

MargoChanning · 09/08/2017 16:31

Thank you for your response Kate.

I would like to know if mumsnet would consider having deletion messages on threads read on the app? I don't see deletion messages when I'm reading on my IPad, which often leads me to wonder what has happened to threads I'm watching that have suddenly gone poof!

SilverFrost · 09/08/2017 16:37

A response at last.

Should any thread be deleted/frozen as soon as "money/crowd funding/fundraising etc" reared it's ugly head.....especially if it cropped up early in a thread?... Hmm

MrsHathaway · 09/08/2017 16:40

Hq own non-exclusive copyright on anything posted here as far as I know.

Unless I'm much mistaken, they have a non-exclusive licence to the author's copyright - might sound like a quibbling difference but really isn't. They own certain rights to use the material (eg to publish it on the relevant Talk page or in Round Up) but the copyright rests with its author.

That's totally standard for social media sites fwiw.

Unfortunately copyright nests (and evergreens) so chasing permission can be complicated.

Longislandicetee · 09/08/2017 17:49

Thank you for the response MNHQ. One question I raised was whether in future the thread can be frozen with an explanation of many reports together with deletion of libellous/offensive posts? This would stop the 100 TAATs and accusation of a cover up.

Lynnm63 · 09/08/2017 17:54

Thank you Kate for posting this. If HQ had done this straight off a great deal of bad feeling could have been avoided.
Poutine and passive aggressive, nobody is blaming hq for people giving out their phone numbers or donating but HQ did appear to validate the poster in question. I didn't see the threads in April only the last one in August. The moving of the thread to charities was as HQ now accept wrong but it was that act that made me think I was out of order for being so cynical. I didn't donate nor post anything beyond condolence for their loss.
As someone posted on one of the deleted threads it's not just good people who are widowed.
With regard to bans I think an email confirming why you've been banned is common courtesy especially if you are a long time member. If you're an obvious newbie troll that's different but it's not pleasant being banned with no explanation as you can't be sure you won't fall foul again if you've not been told what you did wrong.

PelorusJack · 09/08/2017 18:23

Wouldn't an out and out ban on giving money (or stuff) to others help unless it was to a registered charity. If people chose to arrange things off site then so be it but on site I think it's a terrible idea. It only encourages scammers and puts off posters who genuinely only want advice and support. The obvious scammers get picked up easily but I bet it's not hard to write a convincing hard luck story.

I also agree that a stronger worded 'warning' message would help.

I know it is often impossible to know whether someone is a troll or not, especially when a poster is simply embellishing the truth but I think MNHQ are currently very relaxed about allowing suspicious threads, especially the funny ones. Plenty of posters see them as harmless and admit in the threads that they don't care if they are true or not but I suspect the fact that MN appears to be tolerant of trolling make it an obvious target to the more sinister trolls

(absolutely not referring to recent events)

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 18:33

Another thought (sorry hq)

Is there a case for saying - on a case by case basis and when looked at by a senior member of the team- that regardless of the troll or not troll or real or not real of any particular thread - looking st the specific reports it is generating and the amount of reports - that it might be worth saying to the poster concerned that mumsnet might not be the best place for them to receive support?

Especially where people give a lot of themselves emotionally in boards like bereavement for eg.

Clearly there were grave misgivings about this thread we cannot refer to amongst a lot of mumsnetters and perhaps with hindsight it might have been better if hewhoshallnotbenamed had gone elsewhere for support at an earlier stage?

I think there is a danger we are focusing on the money element of this and missing those who gave of themselves and feel upset now.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 18:44

And one last thought (probably not but hey)

It's not just us and hq who need to take responsibility for what we post.

In the gentlest possible way. So does he who shall not be named.

He posted what he did and whilst he was grieving and upset and there is a wee boy who lost his mum in the middle of this, hewhoshallnotbenamed chose to put his real name here he chose to link to companies and Facebook and all the other stuff.

When people began to have concerns on here it wasn't hard to google search and in the gentlest terms it didn't entirely look as he was painting it on here.

Sorry and I understand if you delete this.

OhOhDearling · 09/08/2017 18:44

Mumsnet could do with a policy about hospital/sick bed recordings or photos of vulnerable people who are NOT the person posting the photo.

Also to back up the "we love reports stance", HQ could knock on the head the whingeing of "how dare someone have reported this thread".

Bluntness100 · 09/08/2017 18:50

I've been deliberately staying out of this, but I would only add one comment, which is that I also think this site should not be used for personal fund raising unless from a registered charity that mumsnet approve. I really think it's inappropriate for it to be acceptable for folks to come on and ask for money, it should not be one of the acceptable uses of the site.

It's always going to end up in this sort of mess, with either fake funding requests or fake complaints about the requester. If you need money mumsnet should not be the tool to help you get it.

Banning it prevents the general membership being taken for a ride by either fake requests or fake complaints about the requester and a lot of mnhq resource time then allocated to resolving it.

PandorasXbox · 09/08/2017 18:59

Today 18:44 OhOhDearling

Mumsnet could do with a policy about hospital/sick bed recordings or photos of vulnerable people who are NOT the person posting the photo

That's a fair comment, a bit like MNHQ deleting anyone threatening suicide - they are deleted and given other ideas of support.. but what about photos of poorly children whose parents want to post their picture? Maybe a ban on all photos of anyone in hospital ill?

justanothernameagain · 09/08/2017 18:59

the fact that MN appears to be tolerant of trolling make it an obvious target to the more sinister trolls

Absolutely. A hands off approach and the attitude of several people here of tgere' s nothing MN can do is just announcing uf fucking troll season to all the scammers out there.

The internet is NOT just a that MN don't have any control of and the same number of scammers will be here no matter what they do.

MN control this little patch of the internet. Their approach to trolls, that security procedures and the message they give out about it ALL have an effect on the number of scammers who will be successful at trolling and scamming our site.

No they can't stop scammers trying but they can make a huge difference as to many think it's worth their time to have a go.

justanothernameagain · 09/08/2017 19:00

FFS my phone is making my posts unreadable! I give up!

PandorasXbox · 09/08/2017 19:03

There does seem to a lot of tolerance of benign trolls I agree. Some are so obvious that it's bewildering they're allowed to stand with some of them getting the "ok" from MNHQ and thus making posters even more reluctant to report.

MadnessAbounds · 09/08/2017 19:05

@KateMumsnet

Do you know this feeling? You're arrived at the bar in the pub, and the bloke next to you gets served first, and then another one, and then one who wasn't even at the bar when you arrived, and on it goes. And you sort of start to wonder if you are invisible ... Sad

My post: MadnessAbounds Wed 09-Aug-17 14:50:27

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 19:08

@Bluntness100

I really think it's inappropriate for it to be acceptable for folks to come on and ask for money, it should not be one of the acceptable uses of the site.

Just to be clear, this is what we're proposing to do. We won't allow crowdfunding or fundraising at all, unless for a registered charity.

If this turns out to be a miss-step and there's a feeling on the boards that it's too constraining we can always think again - but for now, we'll stick with registered charities only.

OP posts:
namechangedforthisreply · 09/08/2017 19:12

Following to read

PortiaCastis · 09/08/2017 19:15

Thanks for the update but as another poster has stated when someone reads a thread and thinks oh god that's a lot of shite I'll report it then realises if they do report they'll be castigated as evil and how dare anyone report our thread it stops the reader reporting.
So maybe exclude references to other posters as evil nasty witches etc as they are attacking folk.
Furthermore yes glad to see a ban on moneygrabbing fundraisers unless they are from registered charities and not nigerian princes etc.
The subject of posting pics of seriously ill people especially children I think should be addressed as ruthless scammers could copy pics from fb etc without a thought for the person who is ill in RL and that is terrible.

PelorusJack · 09/08/2017 19:16

Just to be clear, this is what we're proposing to do. We won't allow crowdfunding or fundraising at all, unless for a registered charity.

...but what about the subtle 'I'm skint but I'm not asking for money' well not openly ones.

HoneyDragon · 09/08/2017 19:18

Kate

Not wishing to be rude, but moaning that you're busy at posters, as Rebecca has and other kids, when having appeared to have being doing fuck all about the boards since last week is a little bit off. Grin

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 19:19

Yes yes to what pelorous just said.

I've seen loads of begging threads. Loads of

I'm skint I have so many children I don't know what to do I have no gas no electric no food and I live in a shoe. Can you give me ideas of how to feed everyone and cope

Poster with no posting history and never seen on any other threads.

We all know they get PayPal donations.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 19:21

@MadnessAbounds

Some of the recent bans have raised eyebrows, and as mentioned above, some people are in the dark as to what they did wrong.

Are you able to answer the question now?

[quote MadnessAbounds]Do you know this feeling? You're arrived at the bar in the pub, and the bloke next to you gets served first, and then another one, and then one who wasn't even at the bar when you arrived, and on it goes. And you sort of start to wonder if you are invisible ... Sad

Sorry madness, I thought I'd answered that more or less in my post of 15:05:55. Can't go into individual details but on the whole we let people know when and why we ban them unless we think it's blindingly obvious. I know that there have been some exceptions but I think that's more chance than design - we'll look at formalising this process so that everyone gets an email (unless out and out wrong'uns).

OP posts: