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MNHQ here with an update on our recent moderation decisions

30 replies

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 13:44

Hi all

We thought we should come and address some of your recent points about our moderation, and particularly the worries you have about whether MNers have been taken in by a troll over the last few months, and how MNHQ has handled the issue.

Lots of you have probably missed our previous posts, so the plan is to bring everything together in one place and explain why we’ve been pretty firm about shutting down speculation on this case. We missed an opportunity to do so earlier and it’s led to lots of confusion - we’re very sorry about that, and we want to put it right now as far as we can.

So this is where we’re at: we don't have any evidence to suggest that a fraud has taken place, or that any MNers have been conned. As far as we can tell – and we have looked as carefully as we’ll ever be able to – the poster in question is the person he says he is: the father of a little boy whose mother has just died.

As we’ve said before, we can’t be 100% certain of anyone’s real life identity - it's simply not within our capabilities to know whether the person we’ve spoken to on the phone and via email and who’s been posting on the board is the same as the person of the same name and circumstances who exists elsewhere on the internet. What we do know is that we haven’t seen anything to suggest that money that kind Mumsnetters have donated has been misappropriated or misused - if we had, we would of course have involved the police.

Because MNers are understandably worried and upset, the idea has taken hold that wrongdoing has taken place. But, to be completely clear and to the best of our knowledge - it hasn’t. If you have evidence to the contrary, please get in touch with us immediately.

There have been deletions all over the shop on this - we know this must be incredibly frustrating and that loads of you still have questions and worries that you want to discuss. But we hope you’ll understand that we just can’t allow speculation or conjecture: the consequences if we do are too dreadful, for the family concerned on the one hand, but also for MNers, who are legally responsible for things they say on the boards which turn out to be unfounded.

Two posters have said on the board that they’ve received messages, off Mumsnet, which they felt were inappropriate and worrying - one of these posters reported this direct to MNHQ. We’ve been back to her, of course, but she's now told us definitively that she does not want to pursue it further and has de-regged. The conversation she describes did not take place on MN, and so there’s nowhere further that we can take that, unfortunately. We’ve of course been through the PMs on the account in question and there is nothing there that we’d characterise as harassment of any kind.

Despite all this, we suspended that individual’s account a few days ago, simply because we felt that his continued presence on MN was unlikely to do him, or MNers, any good.

We do see why the existence, for example, of a JustGiving board got people’s hackles up - but again, that’s quite a different thing from actual fraud of which we have zero evidence (and once again, please do bear in mind how serious an issue that would be, and that MNers are responsible for their own posts.)

What we really, really don’t want to do is to shut down discussion about the principles of the matter and our policies on this and other things - and when JustineMumsnet gets back from her break we’ll of course be debriefing her on the many points you’ve made (both on current and deleted threads, which we’ve been through with a fine tooth comb).

One thing that we’ve already done is to change our policy on links to crowdfunding/fundraising sites unless they benefit a registered charity - we agree that moving one of the threads in question to the Charities Noticeboard was a miss-step and that definitely won’t happen again.

We’re also looking really hard at what we say on the boards to reassure users who are worried about a potential troll - in retrospect, we shouldn’t have said that we’d gone above and beyond in checking this case out, because that implies that we can definitively validate any identity, and we can’t.

We really do want to hear what you think, and we listen hard to things that are pissing MNers off - recent examples are the changes underway on usernames1234 and the removal of the T-bar ad on mobile. We consistently turn down more ads than we take. We don’t and never ever will take money from tabloids for our content. We still put purpose before profit, and that’s not going to change - it's why a lot of the MN team have chosen to work at MN Towers. We do have to be sustainable - we’d all be out of a job otherwise - but it’s really worth having a look at the other place if you haven’t recently, to see what really chasing commercial gains looks like: it’s intrusive ads and a lot of sleb gossip.

We hope this helps to clarify our position a bit; do please do put your general thoughts here on this thread - we’ll be listening and we’ll try to help clarify anything that we haven’t covered here. Please do take on board what we’ve said about conjecture though - we’ll have to delete speculative posts if we see them here or if they’re reported on other threads.

Thanks

MNHQ

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 14:28

@OhYouBadBadKitten

Thank you Kate.

At least one person I trust on here says they have been banned for repeatedly reporting concerns rather than troll hunting. They were left very hurt by this, especially as it seemed to come out of the blue. Please can you clarify your policy when people repeatedly report concerns because they feel an issue is serious.

Of course - we really, honestly and truly do not ban for reporting; that's how we moderate and exactly what we advise posters to do when they have concerns.

I guess if a poster persistently reports the same thing and is told straightforwardly to stop doing so, we might suspend? But that would be for not doing as requested, rather than for reporting per se; in all other circs there will have been another reason for the ban.

Obviously not fair for me to go into more detail but if it's the person I'm thinking of, it was a temporary suspension and it wasn't related to the case we're discussing now. We'll be getting in touch soon to lift it - we'll be happy to explain to her the precision reason.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 14:39

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

I reported concerns about what I saw as the re writing of history and posters being characterised as monsters when they weren't.

I was told by a member of hq to feel free to take my concerns to the thread.

I do feel that wouldn't have been particularly helpful at the time.

Can you tell us if we are meant to do this or if we should report?

If you've got concerns about trolling, or you think that Talk Guidelines are being broken, do report. If you think that other posters are wrong about a given issue, that's usually something to debate on the thread.

In this case, it looks as though there's been some v unfortunate confusion. We were suggesting that you tackled what you felt was the rewriting of history on the thread. We'd never ask anyone to investigate trolling on the thread -that's opposite of what we want and we're sorry if we weren't clear.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 14:52

@sobeyondthehills

Just one quick question, if we are legally responsible for everything we say on the boards, then why are we not legally responsible for the contents when they get lifted by certain newspapers?

Or am I missing something really obvious

No, I don't think you're missing anything obvious, Sobeyond! As far as I understand it, these situations are governed by two parts of the law with completely different approaches. The first is libel and defamation and relates to reputational damage to a third party, and the second is copyright, and the issue of how much you can lift as a quotation or to use as 'fair comment'. As I think Justine's said on other threads, you'd need pretty deep pockets to get the copyright issue clarified in court, with no certainty of a positive outcome I'm afraid.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:05

@OhYouBadBadKitten

I wonder if there can be clearer communication when people are suspended or banned?.

We'll definitely take another look at this OYBBK, but I think where there's a particular post or action that we can point to, we do.

Sometimes, though, we come to the conclusion after much discussion here that we're never going to be able to act in the way that a particular poster wants us to; in that case, we sometimes decide there's nothing positive to be gained by repeating the same toxic argument over and over and it's time to part ways. It's something that Justine addressed in her post on our moderation policy over here - it's really worth reading if you haven't already for insight into issues beyond the recent one we're discussing here.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:08

@picklemepopcorn

Proper deletion messages on the app would help avoid lots of Taats where people want to know what happened.

Also, a 'deletions thread' on site stuff, where no one can post except MNHQ, to explain why certain threads have been deleted.

We're looking at deletion messages on the app as we speak. A thread is less likely tbh - the deletions messages usually cover I think.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:19

@FenellaMaxwellsPony

I would like to know why an explanation has been so long in coming. This all started really kicking off on Friday, and it's now Wednesday afternoon.

@Peanutbutterrules

I think that HQ was too slow to apologise/recognise the impact of the 'above and beyond' comment. If this aspect had been acknowledged straight away you would have saved yourselves some grief!

It's a fair point Fenella and Peanutbutterrules. We had a miscommunication here on Sunday morning - we'd intended to post explaining why we were deleting both the original threads and the subsequent speculative threads, but it didn't go up. This was redressed on Monday on another thread, but that thread was ultimately deleted for speculation too. There's another similar post by me yesterday on a thread over here.

But yes - we're very sorry for the delay.

@Peanutbutterrules

My only other observation is that a lot of communication lately from HQ seems to have lost it's humour/MNet feel to it. Maybe it's new mods who don't have the same approach/touch that previous ones had or maybe everyone's just a tad over busy? In any event, it feels a little less fun around here.

Sorry you feel this Peanutbutterrules - I know the community team do try to bob into threads whenever they can, and they'd definitely say that it's one of the loveliest aspects of their jobs. It's true that the more reports we tackle, the less time there is for fun - we've been thinking recently about what we can do to address this. Hope it helps to know that it's on the radar.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:29

@PurpleDaisies

I don't understand why there couldn't be an email sent saying communication with MNHQ is over and you're banned.

There usually is Purple, when it's a permanent suspension of the kind I mentioned. I'll double check though - you're right that in that situation people should know what's happened. When we ban posters for demonstrably being wrong'uns it's probably less of an issue.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:33

@PollyPerky

Just to pick up on one other poster's comments here - was the lack of communication because this took place on a weekend and shortage of staff was the issue?

No, it was just human error Polly.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:42

@PollyPerky

I didn't reply to them but reported their PM to me to MNHQ. The outcome was to see the message disappear from my inbox. I could have done this myself but what I wanted was some feedback from MNHQ on what action or investigations they had carried out.

Sorry about that Polly - we'll take a look. If we reply to each report we end up having a lot less time to tackle the rest of them, but I agree that PMs are a different thing altogether and I'll pass that along.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:46

@SerfTerf

I take your point that you don't hve a direct remit for goings on on WhatsApp or anywhere else.

BUT if MNers are reporting worrying offsite contact (and four separate MNers are) after offering support on MN to someone who represents themself as vulnerable and needing support, then in a future parallel situation, MNHQ wouldn't just ignore that and let the threads continue, surely? Or would they?

No, we definitely wouldn't ignore it SerfTerf - could you mail us with the details?

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:57

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

Could you, as has been suggested, maybe beef up the warning and review how often it is posted?

Yes, this is probably what we'll do.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:59

Really sorry, I've got to bow out for a bit now - I'll be back on for a while a bit later though.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 19:08

@Bluntness100

I really think it's inappropriate for it to be acceptable for folks to come on and ask for money, it should not be one of the acceptable uses of the site.

Just to be clear, this is what we're proposing to do. We won't allow crowdfunding or fundraising at all, unless for a registered charity.

If this turns out to be a miss-step and there's a feeling on the boards that it's too constraining we can always think again - but for now, we'll stick with registered charities only.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 19:21

@MadnessAbounds

Some of the recent bans have raised eyebrows, and as mentioned above, some people are in the dark as to what they did wrong.

Are you able to answer the question now?

[quote MadnessAbounds]Do you know this feeling? You're arrived at the bar in the pub, and the bloke next to you gets served first, and then another one, and then one who wasn't even at the bar when you arrived, and on it goes. And you sort of start to wonder if you are invisible ... Sad

Sorry madness, I thought I'd answered that more or less in my post of 15:05:55. Can't go into individual details but on the whole we let people know when and why we ban them unless we think it's blindingly obvious. I know that there have been some exceptions but I think that's more chance than design - we'll look at formalising this process so that everyone gets an email (unless out and out wrong'uns).

RebeccaMumsnet · 09/08/2017 19:32

@HoneyDragon

Oh and for the last time

Why is this still here?

Thanks Honey, I'll look into that one now.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 19:41

@HoneyDragon

Oh and for the last time

Why is this still here?

Though also, civility is really important in these conversations we think - MNHQ staff are people doing their jobs after all.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:01

@MargoChanning

Thank you for your response Kate.

I would like to know if mumsnet would consider having deletion messages on threads read on the app?

Quick update - deletion messages on the app is all done bar the shouting and will be released in the next couple of days.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:08

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

Just to pick up on one thing.

He's suspended, not banned?

Can't really comment further on that at this stage I'm afraid other than to repeat that the account was suspended simply because being on MN didn't seem to be benefitting any parties. We'll have to review the situation in time.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:24

@Blingygolightly

Thank you for the response MNHQ. One question I raised was whether in future the thread can be frozen with an explanation of many reports together with deletion of libellous/offensive posts? This would stop the 100 TAATs and accusation of a cover up.

I can see your thinking Blingy. The problem is that, frequently, no-one covers themselves in glory on threads that we delete (generally, not speaking specifically about this one). And tbh we don't really think it would prevent TAATs - people would go back to the thread and pick over it, and then start a new one if they disagreed with specific posters or with MNHQs decision to freeze it. But we'll think further for sure.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:31

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

Also (sorry brain dump) could you have a conversation with us and in the office around when a thread gathers an "Army" for want of a better words and how those who are not totally fawning to the army are treated on threads.

Because many many people didn't challenge in the threads because they knew they would be torn to shreds. Which meant when it did blow there was a real keg of force of dissatisfaction behind it

That's an interesting point. It would be quite difficult to do this proactively I think without actually seeming inflammatory ourselves. But we will definitely have a conversation here about poking our head round the door in that situation, to indicate that we don't want to see vilification of those who, for want of a better word, aren't fans. What we'd never want to do is to encourage trollhunting on the thread - that's a different thing entirely.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:37

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

How about my suggestion of deleting all.content but leaving thread up with just the deletion message?

Sorry, ItsAllGoingToBeFine, I didn't quite follow you the first time. Currently the deletion message does stay up, but the posts can't be seen. Is that what you meant or something different?

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:52

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

that has now become to an extent that any kind of questioning is deleted as troll hunting.

Which means no one can ask any questions.

Do there are loads of people who would like to ask questions who are sitting on their hands.

We know it can be really frustrating but people don't have to sit on their hands - they can report. We really do look carefully at all reports of suspect posting. We won't always be able to take action in the way the person reporting would like - in all honesty the result would be lots of bans of people who are genuinely seeking support and that wouldn't be right either. Sorry.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:08

@PicketsPocket

Plus it's been made very obvious that you're banning posters for reporting, which is ridiculous..

I don't think we have at all Pickets - I specifically said upthread that we absolutely don't ban people for reporting and that there's always something else in play?

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:13

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

And your "sorry" there sounds to me as if you are dismissing me.

It wasn't intended to - it ws a genuine if rueful acknowledgment that there isn't really a solution to the problem you identify. Whatever we do, someone is going to be frustrated or unhappy - and I can see your point that sometimes there's a keg-explosion. But on balance we really believe that banning trollhunting and always advising people to report is overall more beneficial to more people.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:22

@PicketsPocket

Oh you do Kate. I can promise you that happens. Do you honestly think MN emails don't get shared around outwith of here? There's at least four off board groups I know of with all of one poster's emails posted.

Please don't try and sweep this under the rug. Posters have and are banned for reporting.

That's just not true I'm afraid. That may be how you are interpreting the mails you are sharing, but it's absolutely not the case that we ban people for genuinely and in good faith reporting their concerns about another poster.

We've banned people for following others with whom they have an ongoing beef around the boards seeking out stuff to report - but only after warnings, and as I said upthread in that case they're actually banned for refusing to change the behaviour when asked.

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