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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ here with an update on our recent moderation decisions

306 replies

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 13:44

Hi all

We thought we should come and address some of your recent points about our moderation, and particularly the worries you have about whether MNers have been taken in by a troll over the last few months, and how MNHQ has handled the issue.

Lots of you have probably missed our previous posts, so the plan is to bring everything together in one place and explain why we’ve been pretty firm about shutting down speculation on this case. We missed an opportunity to do so earlier and it’s led to lots of confusion - we’re very sorry about that, and we want to put it right now as far as we can.

So this is where we’re at: we don't have any evidence to suggest that a fraud has taken place, or that any MNers have been conned. As far as we can tell – and we have looked as carefully as we’ll ever be able to – the poster in question is the person he says he is: the father of a little boy whose mother has just died.

As we’ve said before, we can’t be 100% certain of anyone’s real life identity - it's simply not within our capabilities to know whether the person we’ve spoken to on the phone and via email and who’s been posting on the board is the same as the person of the same name and circumstances who exists elsewhere on the internet. What we do know is that we haven’t seen anything to suggest that money that kind Mumsnetters have donated has been misappropriated or misused - if we had, we would of course have involved the police.

Because MNers are understandably worried and upset, the idea has taken hold that wrongdoing has taken place. But, to be completely clear and to the best of our knowledge - it hasn’t. If you have evidence to the contrary, please get in touch with us immediately.

There have been deletions all over the shop on this - we know this must be incredibly frustrating and that loads of you still have questions and worries that you want to discuss. But we hope you’ll understand that we just can’t allow speculation or conjecture: the consequences if we do are too dreadful, for the family concerned on the one hand, but also for MNers, who are legally responsible for things they say on the boards which turn out to be unfounded.

Two posters have said on the board that they’ve received messages, off Mumsnet, which they felt were inappropriate and worrying - one of these posters reported this direct to MNHQ. We’ve been back to her, of course, but she's now told us definitively that she does not want to pursue it further and has de-regged. The conversation she describes did not take place on MN, and so there’s nowhere further that we can take that, unfortunately. We’ve of course been through the PMs on the account in question and there is nothing there that we’d characterise as harassment of any kind.

Despite all this, we suspended that individual’s account a few days ago, simply because we felt that his continued presence on MN was unlikely to do him, or MNers, any good.

We do see why the existence, for example, of a JustGiving board got people’s hackles up - but again, that’s quite a different thing from actual fraud of which we have zero evidence (and once again, please do bear in mind how serious an issue that would be, and that MNers are responsible for their own posts.)

What we really, really don’t want to do is to shut down discussion about the principles of the matter and our policies on this and other things - and when JustineMumsnet gets back from her break we’ll of course be debriefing her on the many points you’ve made (both on current and deleted threads, which we’ve been through with a fine tooth comb).

One thing that we’ve already done is to change our policy on links to crowdfunding/fundraising sites unless they benefit a registered charity - we agree that moving one of the threads in question to the Charities Noticeboard was a miss-step and that definitely won’t happen again.

We’re also looking really hard at what we say on the boards to reassure users who are worried about a potential troll - in retrospect, we shouldn’t have said that we’d gone above and beyond in checking this case out, because that implies that we can definitively validate any identity, and we can’t.

We really do want to hear what you think, and we listen hard to things that are pissing MNers off - recent examples are the changes underway on usernames1234 and the removal of the T-bar ad on mobile. We consistently turn down more ads than we take. We don’t and never ever will take money from tabloids for our content. We still put purpose before profit, and that’s not going to change - it's why a lot of the MN team have chosen to work at MN Towers. We do have to be sustainable - we’d all be out of a job otherwise - but it’s really worth having a look at the other place if you haven’t recently, to see what really chasing commercial gains looks like: it’s intrusive ads and a lot of sleb gossip.

We hope this helps to clarify our position a bit; do please do put your general thoughts here on this thread - we’ll be listening and we’ll try to help clarify anything that we haven’t covered here. Please do take on board what we’ve said about conjecture though - we’ll have to delete speculative posts if we see them here or if they’re reported on other threads.

Thanks

MNHQ

OP posts:
Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 15:32

Hq own non-exclusive copyright on anything posted here as far as I know.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:33

@PollyPerky

Just to pick up on one other poster's comments here - was the lack of communication because this took place on a weekend and shortage of staff was the issue?

No, it was just human error Polly.

OP posts:
pearlkent · 09/08/2017 15:39

I haven't been following this saga, but what KateMumsnet says does not tally with a previous case on here.

She stated : "As we’ve said before, we can’t be 100% certain of anyone’s real life identity - it's simply not within our capabilities to know whether the person we’ve spoken to on the phone and via email and who’s been posting on the board is the same as the person of the same name and circumstances who exists elsewhere on the internet."

Compare this to the story in the media about a surgeon who demanded that Mumsnet hand over details of a poster's real identity:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4168630/Mumsnet-ordered-hand-identities-users.html

So, can Mumsnet discover identities or not?

SerfTerf · 09/08/2017 15:40

@KateMumsnet

Isn't there still a potential issue of unsavouriness if the exact sequence of events were to happen again with another OP?

I take your point that you don't hve a direct remit for goings on on WhatsApp or anywhere else.

BUT if MNers are reporting worrying offsite contact (and four separate MNers are) after offering support on MN to someone who represents themself as vulnerable and needing support, then in a future parallel situation, MNHQ wouldn't just ignore that and let the threads continue, surely? Or would they?

The key issue is that the persona and purpose portrayed on the boards were in stark contrast to the predatory tone adopted as soon as contact moved off MN.

In future would MNers who felt they'd been mislead and inappropriately spoken to just have to sit on their hands and watch the other persona continue?

SerfTerf · 09/08/2017 15:41

Can anyone who knows what I'm talking about help me collate the NNs of the MNers who have reported inappropriate communication or sexual harassment please?

SoupDragon · 09/08/2017 15:42

Compare this to the story in the media about a surgeon who demanded that Mumsnet hand over details of a poster's real identity

There is no contradiction though. MN could only ever hand over the details given when a poster registered. They can't say that those details are genuine.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:42

@PollyPerky

I didn't reply to them but reported their PM to me to MNHQ. The outcome was to see the message disappear from my inbox. I could have done this myself but what I wanted was some feedback from MNHQ on what action or investigations they had carried out.

Sorry about that Polly - we'll take a look. If we reply to each report we end up having a lot less time to tackle the rest of them, but I agree that PMs are a different thing altogether and I'll pass that along.

OP posts:
Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 15:44

Serf to be fair to hq you really can't report on someone else's behalf. If posters want to take it to hq then they can themselves.

I would also hope that hq have read the deleted threads and been in touch with any poster who reported on the threads that they had received worrying messages.

I would also hope that they have read all the pm by HeWhoShallNotBeNamed as there was at least one HCP who felt the tone of pms was off

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/08/2017 15:45

An additional thing I would like to see is not a complete deletion of threads - when a popular thread gets deleted it spawns a million other TAATs asking what happened. When a thread is deleted I think you should remove the content but leave the thread up with the deletion message IYSWIM.

SerfTerf · 09/08/2017 15:46

Not so much "reporting on their behalf" as neatly listing the people who've already said so publicly on various (deleted) threads.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:46

@SerfTerf

I take your point that you don't hve a direct remit for goings on on WhatsApp or anywhere else.

BUT if MNers are reporting worrying offsite contact (and four separate MNers are) after offering support on MN to someone who represents themself as vulnerable and needing support, then in a future parallel situation, MNHQ wouldn't just ignore that and let the threads continue, surely? Or would they?

No, we definitely wouldn't ignore it SerfTerf - could you mail us with the details?

OP posts:
SerfTerf · 09/08/2017 15:47

Will do. I'll need to find another memory or two to check against first.

BeyondQueenOfLists · 09/08/2017 15:53

The moderation thread is a perfect example of why it's better to lock threads rather than delete them, imo. Lots of he said she said, that could be avoided.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 15:53

There is a difference I think between a harassing PM and an "off" PM.

There was a number of posters who reported that they received pms that were "off" - but that comes down to individual interpretation I suppose.

My point remains/is that you had evidence over months that posters here felt something wasn't quite right and you only posted the generic warning in the first thread.

Could you, as has been suggested, maybe beef up the warning and review how often it is posted?

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 15:56

Also (sorry brain dump) could you have a conversation with us and in the office around when a thread gathers an "Army" for want of a better words and how those who are not totally fawning to the army are treated on threads.

Because many many people didn't challenge in the threads because they knew they would be torn to shreds. Which meant when it did blow there was a real keg of force of dissatisfaction behind it

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:57

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

Could you, as has been suggested, maybe beef up the warning and review how often it is posted?

Yes, this is probably what we'll do.

OP posts:
KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:59

Really sorry, I've got to bow out for a bit now - I'll be back on for a while a bit later though.

OP posts:
SerfTerf · 09/08/2017 16:01

I suppose what I'm getting at mychild, and clearly I'm not expressing it well, is that even the merely "off" (flirtatious) messages are a concrete embodiment of the Two persona thing. Two personas being a red flag In such a situation, certainly as far as intent goes.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 16:02

I completely understand Serf - but that's a matter of personal interpretation.

And anyone who got an "off" PM that made them feel uncomfortable and then subsequent to that, gave that person their phone number, really needs to review their own responses.

SerfTerf · 09/08/2017 16:04

Yes, I agree it wasn't clever. But we've all done daft things one way or the other. I'm tempted to talk about grooming, but I'll probably get deleted.

PassiveAggressiveFloofiness · 09/08/2017 16:04

As far as I know, no one reported any sexual messages to MNHQ at the time and the poster I saw discussing it said she no longer has a record of them.

If this is the case, I don't see why people are castigating MNHQ for a failure to deal with this aspect. If they didn't have a report or proof provided to them at the time, they can't do anything.

I also do not feel MNHQ "endorsed" or "vouched" for any poster, only that they couldn't prove anyone wasn't who they said they were and they had done all they can to check but usual warnings about not giving more etc.

There was a poster who definitely did vouch for them and claimed to know them in RL, but this wasn't the case.

It's interesting that MNHQ are being "blamed" for this yet individual posters who gave out their private details, handed over money or vouched for someone they didn't know don't seem to be expected to take any personal responsibility, and the words "victim blaming" apply to them but not MNHQ.

If someone does troll, only they are responsible for their actions but we also all have a responsibility to ourselves to protect our privacy and walllets online too, surely?

I've said before blaming MNHQ for trolling is like blaming BT when I give money to a Nigerian Prince who rings me and says his bank account is locked.

SerfTerf · 09/08/2017 16:08

I'm not castigating MNHQ at all. I know it's a difficult balance they have to strike.

I'm just running through a hypothetical repeat event in my head.

Floralnomad · 09/08/2017 16:13

passiveaggressive , that is spot on .

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 09/08/2017 16:14

PassiveAggressiveFloofiness

I think that just about sums it up.

I get that people are angry though.

SerfTerf · 09/08/2017 16:14

Beefed up standard warnings are a great idea.