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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ here with an update on our recent moderation decisions

306 replies

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 13:44

Hi all

We thought we should come and address some of your recent points about our moderation, and particularly the worries you have about whether MNers have been taken in by a troll over the last few months, and how MNHQ has handled the issue.

Lots of you have probably missed our previous posts, so the plan is to bring everything together in one place and explain why we’ve been pretty firm about shutting down speculation on this case. We missed an opportunity to do so earlier and it’s led to lots of confusion - we’re very sorry about that, and we want to put it right now as far as we can.

So this is where we’re at: we don't have any evidence to suggest that a fraud has taken place, or that any MNers have been conned. As far as we can tell – and we have looked as carefully as we’ll ever be able to – the poster in question is the person he says he is: the father of a little boy whose mother has just died.

As we’ve said before, we can’t be 100% certain of anyone’s real life identity - it's simply not within our capabilities to know whether the person we’ve spoken to on the phone and via email and who’s been posting on the board is the same as the person of the same name and circumstances who exists elsewhere on the internet. What we do know is that we haven’t seen anything to suggest that money that kind Mumsnetters have donated has been misappropriated or misused - if we had, we would of course have involved the police.

Because MNers are understandably worried and upset, the idea has taken hold that wrongdoing has taken place. But, to be completely clear and to the best of our knowledge - it hasn’t. If you have evidence to the contrary, please get in touch with us immediately.

There have been deletions all over the shop on this - we know this must be incredibly frustrating and that loads of you still have questions and worries that you want to discuss. But we hope you’ll understand that we just can’t allow speculation or conjecture: the consequences if we do are too dreadful, for the family concerned on the one hand, but also for MNers, who are legally responsible for things they say on the boards which turn out to be unfounded.

Two posters have said on the board that they’ve received messages, off Mumsnet, which they felt were inappropriate and worrying - one of these posters reported this direct to MNHQ. We’ve been back to her, of course, but she's now told us definitively that she does not want to pursue it further and has de-regged. The conversation she describes did not take place on MN, and so there’s nowhere further that we can take that, unfortunately. We’ve of course been through the PMs on the account in question and there is nothing there that we’d characterise as harassment of any kind.

Despite all this, we suspended that individual’s account a few days ago, simply because we felt that his continued presence on MN was unlikely to do him, or MNers, any good.

We do see why the existence, for example, of a JustGiving board got people’s hackles up - but again, that’s quite a different thing from actual fraud of which we have zero evidence (and once again, please do bear in mind how serious an issue that would be, and that MNers are responsible for their own posts.)

What we really, really don’t want to do is to shut down discussion about the principles of the matter and our policies on this and other things - and when JustineMumsnet gets back from her break we’ll of course be debriefing her on the many points you’ve made (both on current and deleted threads, which we’ve been through with a fine tooth comb).

One thing that we’ve already done is to change our policy on links to crowdfunding/fundraising sites unless they benefit a registered charity - we agree that moving one of the threads in question to the Charities Noticeboard was a miss-step and that definitely won’t happen again.

We’re also looking really hard at what we say on the boards to reassure users who are worried about a potential troll - in retrospect, we shouldn’t have said that we’d gone above and beyond in checking this case out, because that implies that we can definitively validate any identity, and we can’t.

We really do want to hear what you think, and we listen hard to things that are pissing MNers off - recent examples are the changes underway on usernames1234 and the removal of the T-bar ad on mobile. We consistently turn down more ads than we take. We don’t and never ever will take money from tabloids for our content. We still put purpose before profit, and that’s not going to change - it's why a lot of the MN team have chosen to work at MN Towers. We do have to be sustainable - we’d all be out of a job otherwise - but it’s really worth having a look at the other place if you haven’t recently, to see what really chasing commercial gains looks like: it’s intrusive ads and a lot of sleb gossip.

We hope this helps to clarify our position a bit; do please do put your general thoughts here on this thread - we’ll be listening and we’ll try to help clarify anything that we haven’t covered here. Please do take on board what we’ve said about conjecture though - we’ll have to delete speculative posts if we see them here or if they’re reported on other threads.

Thanks

MNHQ

OP posts:
PassiveAggressiveFloofiness · 09/08/2017 14:57

Mychild I know you didn't write it all but your post of 14.24 comes across as incredibly pompous, I'm afraid. In my opinion at least.

If I was at MNHQ I would thinking "well go and start your own forum", tbh!

I think MNHQ do a pretty good job all round under the circumstances and suggesting Justine should return from holiday as MNers have given out money and private contact details to someone from the boards, and want her to address them, is a bit Shock Some of the comments over the last few days (I saw one saying MNHQ were personally responsible for MNers being sexually assaulted FFS) have been awful.

The only thing I would say is please put a proper deletion message visible on the app. All you get is "this thread has been deleted by MN" which does leave people wondering - and probably starting a TAAT!

VladmirsPoutine · 09/08/2017 14:58

Thanks Kate.

Personally I think people take the nature of this site far too seriously and might need to step away from the internet for a bit if they feel to overwhelmed.
I know it's a great community and many have sought and received tremendous support but to be frank, it's just the internet and nothing and no-one can will change that. People have autonomy over their actions. They shouldn't look to blame MN for their bad decisions.

HoneyDragon · 09/08/2017 14:59

Kate

What's going to happen in regards to the stuff you write in detail on threads then delete?

Can the MN posts be screen shot onto the deletion? The above posters 'storm in a teacup' speculation is what causes a lot of the resultant chaos. Posters are discussing what MNHQ said and others are going "provit it" it was farcical.

Also I've posted and mentioned that I personally, no longer see the point in reporting. Stuff gets left to stand that's appalling and other goady, somewhat iffy posters seem to have the team on retainer. It's tiresome.

Especially when they openly mock you on other social media sites for being fools, it's awful to see the modding being abused by posters and being powerless to point it out as it dies too appear to be working at present.

It's a real shame as it does make the site look a bit of a shambles.

justanothernameagain · 09/08/2017 14:59

What about - if someone in the future posts a picture of a person in a hospital bed to gain sympathy and money. Wbat about if they do the same with a picture of a child in relation to awful circumstances and to get money? Is that still allowed?

What if it could be proved that someone posted FAKE pictures and audio recordings to gain money - even though the basics of their story checked out - surely that should be against the rules, get an instant ban and details passed to the police?

sobeyondthehills · 09/08/2017 15:01

No, I don't think you're missing anything obvious, Sobeyond! As far as I understand it, these situations are governed by two parts of the law with completely different approaches. The first is libel and defamation and relates to reputational damage to a third party, and the second is copyright, and the issue of how much you can lift as a quotation or to use as 'fair comment'. As I think Justine's said on other threads, you'd need pretty deep pockets to get the copyright issue clarified in court, with no certainty of a positive outcome I'm afraid.

Thanks for this Kate, I shall keep it in mind

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 15:01

Passive. I did apologise in the post - before I reposted the post from the other day - for the tone.

I am trying to be measured and not refer to recent events and that makes it difficult to sound natural. Or at least - it does for me. Maybe others are simply better at that type of language than I am but I can't help that (and I did apologise for the tone and explain why I was writing as I was)

picklemepopcorn · 09/08/2017 15:01

Thank you!

Proper deletion messages on the app would help avoid lots of Taats where people want to know what happened.

Also, a 'deletions thread' on site stuff, where no one can post except MNHQ, to explain why certain threads have been deleted.

Peanutbutterrules · 09/08/2017 15:01

Thanks for the update and clarification. I think that HQ was too slow to apologise/recognise the impact of the 'above and beyond' comment. If this aspect had been acknowledged straight away you would have saved yourselves some grief!

My only other observation is that a lot of communication lately from HQ seems to have lost it's humour/MNet feel to it. Maybe it's new mods who don't have the same approach/touch that previous ones had or maybe everyone's just a tad over busy? In any event, it feels a little less fun around here.

GinIsIn · 09/08/2017 15:03

I would like to know why an explanation has been so long in coming. This all started really kicking off on Friday, and it's now Wednesday afternoon. You mention that posters might have made comments that could leave them open to legal retribution but most, if not all, of said speculation could have been avoided by a timely and appropriate response from MN, rather than the ostrich approach of ignore and delete that's been in operation for the past 5 days.

As mentioned before - MN is a highly lucrative business, it's not a kitchen table company and it needs to be moderated maturely, swiftly, and with more respect for its users.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:05

@OhYouBadBadKitten

I wonder if there can be clearer communication when people are suspended or banned?.

We'll definitely take another look at this OYBBK, but I think where there's a particular post or action that we can point to, we do.

Sometimes, though, we come to the conclusion after much discussion here that we're never going to be able to act in the way that a particular poster wants us to; in that case, we sometimes decide there's nothing positive to be gained by repeating the same toxic argument over and over and it's time to part ways. It's something that Justine addressed in her post on our moderation policy over here - it's really worth reading if you haven't already for insight into issues beyond the recent one we're discussing here.

OP posts:
HerOtherHalf · 09/08/2017 15:06

I've only been half following this saga and have limited sympathy for people who are foolish enough to give money to strangers on the internet. I also think some people put far too much trust in the MN moderators. Not that I'm suggesting you are untrustworthy but you are, at the end of the day, just moderators of a chat forum.

I think the single biggest mistake you made was vouching for the poster in question and stating something along the lines of "he checks out". People who trust you will take that to mean he is who he says he is. If you haven't been able to verify his identity beyond any doubt you simply should not be making statements like that.

Having a chat with them doesn't cut it. Verifying that there is someone out there with that name who is going through the tragic events described doesn't cut it either. It's alarming that despite the time you've had to think this over it's clear from your OP in this thread that you still don't get it. To quote you:
"As we’ve said before, we can’t be 100% certain of anyone’s real life identity - it's simply not within our capabilities to know whether the person we’ve spoken to on the phone and via email and who’s been posting on the board is the same as the person of the same name and circumstances who exists elsewhere on the internet. "

It's simple. If you cannot verify someone's identity 100% then don't vouch for them.

scottishdiem · 09/08/2017 15:08

One of the consequences of people getting over invested in threads and judging other posters for their comments is that people think this is their forum, their rules.

MNHQ do things the way they want and we can either like it or lump it. Its all free to me, its all something I can take or leave. I really dont get why people think their ideas to improve things wont make things worse for others.

Please dont bow to these naysayers MNHQ, I like the boards and threads are they are. But then I dont immaturely invest myself too much on what goes on here.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:08

@picklemepopcorn

Proper deletion messages on the app would help avoid lots of Taats where people want to know what happened.

Also, a 'deletions thread' on site stuff, where no one can post except MNHQ, to explain why certain threads have been deleted.

We're looking at deletion messages on the app as we speak. A thread is less likely tbh - the deletions messages usually cover I think.

OP posts:
Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 15:08

You can vouch for their identity. You can never ever vouch for their motives. And a crowd funding site is not a charity.

Which is where all this went wrong basically.

NellieBuff · 09/08/2017 15:17

Dear Katie
Thank you for taking the time to post.

Another issue that may need some attention is the seemingly inconsistent deletion of posts and threads. I feel that some unconscious bias comes through when moderating threads and posts and since we are all human mistakes will happen.

Perhaps more consistent policy implementation might be considered - it might just be as simple as MNHQ reminding themselves what should and should not be deleted etc. and not allowing personal bias to show.

Just a thought.

PollyPerky · 09/08/2017 15:17

I'd like MNHQ to clarify who owns the copyright for posts. Mumsnet or individual posters? Some time ago, Mnet owned the copyright of everything on the site (I think) and journalists could not copy and paste into their features.
This is not so now. It makes a difference because it's one thing posting online - and yes, millions can read it- and another having your posts lifted and showing online on the Daily Mail.

Where does MN stand on this please?

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:19

@FenellaMaxwellsPony

I would like to know why an explanation has been so long in coming. This all started really kicking off on Friday, and it's now Wednesday afternoon.

@Peanutbutterrules

I think that HQ was too slow to apologise/recognise the impact of the 'above and beyond' comment. If this aspect had been acknowledged straight away you would have saved yourselves some grief!

It's a fair point Fenella and Peanutbutterrules. We had a miscommunication here on Sunday morning - we'd intended to post explaining why we were deleting both the original threads and the subsequent speculative threads, but it didn't go up. This was redressed on Monday on another thread, but that thread was ultimately deleted for speculation too. There's another similar post by me yesterday on a thread over here.

But yes - we're very sorry for the delay.

@Peanutbutterrules

My only other observation is that a lot of communication lately from HQ seems to have lost it's humour/MNet feel to it. Maybe it's new mods who don't have the same approach/touch that previous ones had or maybe everyone's just a tad over busy? In any event, it feels a little less fun around here.

Sorry you feel this Peanutbutterrules - I know the community team do try to bob into threads whenever they can, and they'd definitely say that it's one of the loveliest aspects of their jobs. It's true that the more reports we tackle, the less time there is for fun - we've been thinking recently about what we can do to address this. Hope it helps to know that it's on the radar.

OP posts:
Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 15:20

Copyright will always have a fair use exemption especially for "news reporting".

There's an explanation here www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use

PollyPerky · 09/08/2017 15:22

One more thing... I'd appreciate more feedback at times from you when reporting abusive PMs.
At the weekend I received an abusive PM from someone I'd never heard of. I searched their use name and it showed no posts from that person at all. I assume they name changed purely to PM me. I'd had no interaction with them knowingly and the topic they took issue with was a thread where I posted 6 months ago. The message was very upsetting and a real 'rant' at me, quite unfounded as it happened.

I didn't reply to them but reported their PM to me to MNHQ. The outcome was to see the message disappear from my inbox. I could have done this myself but what I wanted was some feedback from MNHQ on what action or investigations they had carried out.

Just to pick up on one other poster's comments here - was the lack of communication because this took place on a weekend and shortage of staff was the issue?

PurpleDaisies · 09/08/2017 15:23

Sometimes, though, we come to the conclusion after much discussion here that we're never going to be able to act in the way that a particular poster wants us to; in that case, we sometimes decide there's nothing positive to be gained by repeating the same toxic argument over and over and it's time to part ways.

While I agree that at some point it just comes down to a "no thanks, we don't want you here, no argument", I don't understand why there couldn't be an email sent saying communication with MNHQ is over and you're banned.

I was banned accidentally once and it was incredibly frustrating trying to work out what had happened when there was literally no warning.

Peanutbutterrules · 09/08/2017 15:23

Thanks for taking the time to respond. And yes, its good to know that its on the radar. The humour from HQ has always been such a strong point, and it would be great to have it back again.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 09/08/2017 15:24

To be fair Kate it seems that you had been receiving reports and concerns for quite some time. And people felt - rightly or wrongly - that no action was being taken.

The decision to move the thread was not done over the weekend. It was done on Tuesday or Wednesday of last week. I reported it on Wednesday and suggested a resolution (change of name of the board) and haven't had a reply to date.

That leads to frustration.

PollyPerky · 09/08/2017 15:25

I'm aware of that Mychild . I work in the media.
The information you posted says that the author should be credited (so does a username suffice?) and To avoid problems, if you are in any doubt, you are advised to always get the permission of the owner, prior to use. So does 'the owner' mean MNHQ or the poster? That is the point.

Lucysky2017 · 09/08/2017 15:26

Lots of good posts above and I like Justine's statement about moderation (linked above).

I agree with the poster a bit above saying that if in doubt don't try to confirm or deny anyone bona fides. It is a difficult job for websites like this but there is less likely to be legal liability the less you endorse or approve or give a view on someone or their post (yet most people feel intervention is safer - very difficult balance to get right).

I make it a point, meanie that I am, never to give money solicited from me, at the door, by post, on line and instead keep my charitable donations as something I initiate, I research and I then actively find and donate to. It tends to be a bit safer.

I like the measured and evidenced way MN has not given in to any herd minority on this issue by the way. We see far too often these days everyone piling in a bandwagon of XYZ on line and off line but just because there is noise or what appears to be one voice does not mean it's right. In fact often it's completely wrong. So if in doubt don't censor, just warn that some people might be doubting something.

The Google man who has said all men and women should be considered on their merits in science and hiring but dared to give his view that men may be better suited than women for XYZ has lost his job. Yet I feel I want people to be free to express views I absolutely detest or even know to be lies rather than find censorship prevailing.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:29

@PurpleDaisies

I don't understand why there couldn't be an email sent saying communication with MNHQ is over and you're banned.

There usually is Purple, when it's a permanent suspension of the kind I mentioned. I'll double check though - you're right that in that situation people should know what's happened. When we ban posters for demonstrably being wrong'uns it's probably less of an issue.

OP posts: