This is bullshit thread #3

[HornyTortoise]

Following on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716917-This-is-bullshit-Thread-2

Open ongoing discussion welcome for anyone to join in.

Just tried to reply to see max posts were reached, hope this is OK to do...

Jed I don't think we need to stand together on everything. A lot of things that affect wome don't affect us. A lot of things that affect us don't affect women.

But some things affect both of us. Specifically gender and aspects of male violence. Surely it makes sense to stand together on those? Particularly as part of what we are standing up against purports to represent the trans community.

How helpful is that, though, JAP? I can identify as a 20-year-old black man. I can go around with a swaggering walk, get an intense suntan and wear a wig. I'll still be a 60-year-old white woman.

The only effect it'll have on other people is that some folks might be fooled, and might treat me differently (probably adversely) because of my identity. Young black men will not be fooled. If I end up feeling resentful about the prejudice I've encountered and sad about my non-inclusion by young black men, who's responsible?

marking my place so I can catch up and keep this on my TIO list.

Marking place.

But some things affect both of us. Specifically gender and aspects of male violence. Surely it makes sense to stand together on those?

I think we can agree on male violence being a problem, although how it is experienced & the differing socialisation of male vs female children means we are likely to have different perspectives on whether a specific behaviour or issue is a problem or not. The whole issue of gender seems entirely vexed & rejected or accepted to differing degrees. Whether women and TW can come together on this remains to be seen, as at the moment a lot of MTT discourse seems to build on and further entrench gender roles and stereotyping that many women utterly reject.

I do appreciate the measured discussion on this thread & don't want to derail. It is also excellent to have such measured and thought-provoking contributions from trans posters.

This is true according to the organising principles by which humans have chosen to interpret biological observations. Historically, this organising principle had the aim of differentiating between men and women in order to control women's sexuality and fertility.

Adjustable, this isn't true. People didn't eeny meeny miney mo and decide that some people are female and some people aren't. We are a sexually dimorphic species, females are persecuted because of their biology not because of an ancient organising principle.

I have some thoughts on the GRC.

The way I interpret it, a gender recognition certificate doesn't change your birth certificate as an acknowledgment that you have always been a member of the opposite sex. It changes to avoid being outed, because there is a risk of violence but also because the government sees that there is shame attached to being trans.

I can see a parallel here with another time a birth certificate can be revised - if you marry after having children. In this situation you're supposed to re-register the children so their birth certificate shows them as "children of the marriage". This must be because of the shame attached to being 'illegitimate'

This shame no longer exists, afaic. We have progressed as a society past judging people for having dc out of wedlock. So who's to say the same can't be done for trans people?

I know this doesn't really solve any immediate problems, the parallel just struck me today.

This is the most reasonable, polite and respectful discussion I have ever seen on these issues, anywhere. This is why being able to have this discussion on mumsnet rather than on a forum where dissenting views aren't welcome is so so important.

I agree with that Sporadicus, society is twisting itself up to protect a group from male violence or the shame of being caught out instead of just embracing the fact that we're all different. Toxic masculinity and how we raise boys in society is what needs to change.

Thanks Lumpy, it's such a mess. The proposed changes will make a MTT legally no different from a woman but materially no different from a man.

I can see a parallel here with another time a birth certificate can be revised - if you marry after having children. In this situation you're supposed to re-register the children so their birth certificate shows them as "children of the marriage". This must be because of the shame attached to being 'illegitimate'

Is this why I was told I HAD to re-register their birth certificates when I married my partner..I did wonder about that and found it a bit weird but noone could explain to me why I would need to do this.

Sporadicus

Yes that's right. The GRC and new birth certificate came about as a necessary means of protection. It was indeed so that somebody didn't need to out themselves and open themselves up to discrimination.

However, for many that history has been lost and I know mant TW that see it as endorsement that they have always been women. Now it's all about validation.

I personally don't want a GRC because I wasn't born female and my parents didn't call me Helen so I would see it as a lie.

Toxic masculinity and how we raise boys in society is what needs to change

I agree with that. I think that society does judge boys who are 'different' and imposes strict rules on them - especially with how they present to the world.

I do think that the dysphoria associated with some trans people and the efffectiveness and relief that HRT and surgery brings to how the body looks and feels is different though and cannot be ignored.

I do think that something biological is going on there - whether it's how the chromosomal expression is affected by hormones in the womb, during development, epigenetics - because chromosomes are more than X and Y etc.

I think that does not have to mean 'lady brain'. It just might well mean that something has happened that means the XY expression has been affected and that's caused an effect somewhere in the brain to make a trans person see that their body is 'wrong'. I know some people will dismiss that - but as someone said upthread, the brain is incredibly complex and there are many things we don't know about it. Gene expression is incredibly complex, Hormones are complex. Epigenetics is a new science.

The feeling of body dysphoria cannot be ignored , its causes are very unclear and the feeling of relief that is felt as the body becomes more what 'it should be' should not be under estimated. To call it 'mutilation' is to dismiss what is a life changing operation

Whether women and TW can come together on this remains to be seen, as at the moment a lot of MTT discourse seems to build on and further entrench gender roles and stereotyping that many women utterly reject.

Yes. I don't think that women and most TW will stand together in the near future, but I think that it's important for those of us who at least try to understand and share views on gender to stand with women.

I personally don't want a GRC because I wasn't born female and my parents didn't call me Helen so I would see it as a lie

So can I ask - on your passport and driving license, have you put M or F?

If it is M, do you ever have 'issues' with authority?

Ego et al. I totally agree with the toxic masculinity point. Too many boys are forced into this stereotype. I blame Hollywood (!). Girls too: if we aren't hairless and slim and beautiful all the time, with long flowing locks then somehow we arent 'normal'. Of course this is daft but the stereotype continues. For this I blame Disney

Ego

They say 'F'

It's more practical for exactly the reasons you suggest. I did it before I understood things the way I do now. Same as changing my name. It's all about fitting in. Society fimds it easier to accept a "trans woman" than a man who presents in a way that is percieved to be as a woman.

Too many boys are forced into this stereotype

If you are a boy and 'happen' to prefer skirts to trousers, school can make it very difficult for year. If you want long hair, school can say no. Why shouldn't a boy wear a skirt to school without being judged and without being bullied? Because society has rules /

However, if that boy says 'I feel like a girl', it's fine. He can wear what he wants.

Disney is the worst for this!!!!!

Society fimds it easier to accept a "trans woman" than a man who presents in a way that is percieved to be as a woman

And society isn't going to change soon. People do what they do to fit in and survive.

Exactly Ego.

It's always important to understand things in the context of the current real world and not some imagined world.

That's not to say that we just accept the status quo and don't push for change. But we have to do we need to do to survive the journey.

The feeling of body dysphoria cannot be ignored , its causes are very unclear

One problem with this is that - as often described in FWR - a high proportion of girls develop body dysphoria during puberty. I did: I took up cutting and became anorexic, which I now see as a (partially successful) attempt to not become a woman. It's not unusual for boys, either - becoming a man's a fairly heavy burden. My brother decided to be gay for 4 years.

I can't tell you how what I experienced, or my brother, compares to the dysphoria felt by trans people. Neither can you. All we have are subjective descriptions - and symptoms, which are mostly the same.

So we still don't even know what it is, let alone what to do about it. I wish we'd start by ignoring gender. That ain't happening any time soon, though, and it makes me nervous when people assume the best response to gender discomfort is to alter the body.

It's always important to understand things in the context of the current real world and not some imagined world

Sometimes I think that's forgotten - and then trans people face a lot of hassle for what we have to do to survive in the real world and to try to fit in in a world that does not 'get us'.

MephistoMarley wrote - "TW with bottom surgery etc are definitely closer to being women than men but that doesn't mean they are women."

Although I know that you qualified your statement with "but that doesn't mean they are women", the first part of your sentence about "definitely closer to being women" seemed to me to imply that you may believe in the existence of some kind of man-woman spectrum which transwomen can move along by altering their bodies. This raises a few questions in my mind:

Why do you believe that bottom surgery etc. makes a transwoman definitely closer to being a woman?

Do you also believe that a mastectomy and hysterectomy etc. makes a transman definitely closer to being a man although still not a man?

If a non-trans man is castrated is he definitely closer to being a woman?

If a non-trans woman has a hysterectomy or a mastectomy or is a victim of FGM is she also definitely closer to being a man?