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This is bullshit thread #3

365 replies

HornyTortoise · 28/08/2016 22:39

Following on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716917-This-is-bullshit-Thread-2

Open ongoing discussion welcome for anyone to join in.

Just tried to reply to see max posts were reached, hope this is OK to do... Smile

OP posts:
PlentyOfPubeGardens · 29/08/2016 20:43

Old school transsexual is a very different thing to the new genderists.

YY this ^^

GarlicMistake · 29/08/2016 20:45

I don't have that sort of identity, either, Plenty, gender or otherwise. I have a core personality, for sure. And I was born with a set of tendencies to be good at some things & bad at others. None of this is sex-related; there are women and men all over the place with the same inherent qualities as me.

All the rest is experience - and, as we grow, hormones.

As a lifelong student of human nature, I don't believe there is any inborn sense of one's sex. Consequently there can't be any inborn sense of gender: we are taught our gender, beginning the minute our parent finds out whether we're a girl or boy, and the whole world colludes from that moment on.

It's a pity there's no gender-free cohort to study!

venusinscorpio · 29/08/2016 20:48

I really hate the conflation of sex with gender in terms of the language around it. When I see threads about "guessing the gender of my baby" from a scan it makes my teeth itch.

HermioneWeasley · 29/08/2016 20:52

I think the difficulty is that many TW, even after gential surgery, still look born male. And that means it's not appropriate for them to be in rape crisis centres, survivor meetings, DV refuges and acting when a woman has requested a female HCP.

Gabrielle is a fully transitioned TW. She's still obviously born male and if I asked for a female HCP and she walked in, I wouldn't be happy. If that makes me a bigot, then so be it.

This is bullshit thread #3
venusinscorpio · 29/08/2016 21:04

I agree with Hermione. This is the heart of the matter I think.

GarlicMistake · 29/08/2016 21:19

Tbh, I wouldn't be happy if Gabrielle pipped my daughter to a place on that team, either. There's being born with an unfair advantage - and transitioning into that advantage.

Considering that both the age restriction and the one-term rule were waived for her, she transitioned into a lot of unfair advantages.

AGuyCalledHelen · 29/08/2016 21:22

We all swim in a sea of gendered socialisation from the day we are born. It's as much a part of us and our personalities as anything else that has shaped who we are over the course of our lives. It's so all-pervasive that we can make little sense of ourselves and who we are without reference to it. That doesn't mean we're all comfortable with it or can't consciously reject it, but all those countless gendered experiences over the years are an inextricable part of who we are.

I think that this is a really great way of putting it. Whilst we may know that gender is something that is made up and forced upon us, and therefore we may reject gender itself as being valid, we can't ignore the fact that it exists and pretty much all of our experiences are in some way related to gender. It's reinforced from before we are even born and constantly in school, on the TV, in magazines, by our parents etc. If we all naturally have different personalities (that actually aren't linked to our sex), then it's quite easy to see how some males' personalities fall outside the acceptable range of what men are allowed to be and fall right in the range of what females are allowed to be. I think that's what people mean when they talk about gender identity. It isn't something innate akin to a soul. It's something that makes sense only with reference to that all pervasive social construct that we are all unwillingly subjected to.

Then as a seperate point is the feeling of body dysphoria (not dysmorphia - that's something different). The feeling that our body is wrong and needs to be changed. That the maleness needs to be erased. That it should be female.

Different people have different levels and awarenesses of these two things. It sounds like Ego experiences a lot more of the second component than the first (correct me if I'm wrong as I don't want to speak for you). I experience both and I was aware of the dysphoric element before I became aware of the socially constructed gender element. Actually I knew that I "identified as a woman", but I didn't have the understanding to know what that meant. I didn't understand gender as something that we learn.

Now that I'm armed with that it's much easier for me to accept that I'm male, even a man (thought I still associate that word with everything I don't want to be), but that I seem to fit the socially constructed expectations of what it is to be woman more than I accept the socially constructed expectations of what it is to be a man.

So the question is where does it come from? Is it nature or nurture? This is a real can of worms. There is some research that has been conducted with a view to finding physioloigcal reasons. Not are particularly convincing and there is probably more evidence suggesting no difference between male and female brains than proving a difference.

There has been relatively little study into finding psychological reasons behind this. There are some studies that investigate it using the framework of attachment theory. It has been suggested that a commonality amongst a large proportion of transexuals is that of an absent father (physically or emotionally) and that the child develops a need to become closer to the mother. Some people will recognise this happening where others will totally reject it. I certainly think that attachment theory is an interesting framework to investigate this.

We also can't ignore autogynephilia (agp) as a common theme as well. Agp is controversial and vehemently rejected by many in the trans community. I think that much of the rejection comes from ignorance about what the term actually means, and part of it comes from a fear that agp will be seen as a kink and there is shame attached to that. The other fear is of course that it clearly sets trans people with agp apart from women. Agp is understood by many to mean that somebody wants a female body because it turns them on. That their desire for transition is sexual arousal. And I think that for some this is true, but for many others, whilst the origins of agp are sexual in nature the erotic component has long since reduced and the "feminine" part becomes more of a core component of personality. Anne Lawrence is a transexual who writes excellently on the subject. www.annelawrence.com/becoming_what_we_love.pdf

Of course anybody who writes about this is villified, and discredited by the trans lobby.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 29/08/2016 21:23

What about Paris Lees and others? You've called them 'he' and 'blokes' on the Spartacus thread? I think that's pretty horrible.

There's nothing horrible about it, Ego. Paris Lees is a bloke. Pretending that he and the others listed in the Spartacus OP are women are what got us into this mess. Penis = man.

If you hate being described as male surely the only appropriate response is to work on yourself so that you don't react so violently to simple, uncontroversial facts? If it's true, what's your problem?

Expecting other people to engage in a sort of mass self-deception is not a reasonable or proportionate response. I appreciate that GID is horrible but there are umpteen physical and mental disorders in this world that are horrible and millions live with them.

I have significant physical/mental health problems including chronic pain and my mobility is not great. I am a widow and would love to marry again. Fat ageing women are not in great demand. I'm invisible to most men. My health problems would put a lot of men off, let alone the wrinkles...

However there's no mileage in demanding people lie about me. I don't insist that the world tells me that I'm young and slender. I do not demand proposals or sexual attention from men on the basis that not worshipping my body represents some sort of phobia. I use the skills learned over my lifetime to accept my truth, and my limitations, not try to evade them. We all have troubles. The world doesn't usually budge over accommodate us.

No, we can really only change ourselves and it seems to me that anyone who denies the basic material of their body will have a sense of self that will inevitably remain wretchedly fragile.

AGuyCalledHelen · 29/08/2016 21:31

Hermione

Exactly. If blindly accepting that "transwomen are women" becuase some transwomen are OK and pass reasonably well and don't behave like dicks is the thin end of the wedge, then TW with an obvious physical advantage competing against women in sport is the next step that we are seeing. Then men with beards and suits in women's spaces comes next.

As a TS I obviously want to do anything that reduces discrimination against us and makes us safe as long as:

  1. It's grounded in reality, otherwise it's unstable and not sustainable in the long run, and;
  2. It's not at the expense of anyone else.

At the moment the trans lobby is ignoring both of these things. It's not transphobic for women to recognise this and to point it out and demand better.

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 29/08/2016 21:32

Sorry Helen - I typed dysphoria first and then (after my autocorrect changed it to dysphasia?) thought "no that's not right" and changed it to dysmorphia. I didn't have much luck before finding the difference, do you mind explaining what it is?

HermioneWeasley · 29/08/2016 21:32

Absolutely agree with prawn

And Paris Lees is a revolting misogynst - a classic example of a TW appropriating and parodying womanhood with his love of cat calling and praise for double penetration. He can fuck right off.

AGuyCalledHelen · 29/08/2016 21:38

No, we can really only change ourselves and it seems to me that anyone who denies the basic material of their body will have a sense of self that will inevitably remain wretchedly fragile.

I agree wholeheartedly Prawn. I came at this a couple of years ago firmly believing that TW are women and that anybody who said that we aren't was just a mean old nasty. It's taken a lot of hard work ro really, really challenge my own beliefs and listen to opposing viewpoints that at times were incredibly hurtful and hard to hear. The views cut at the the very foundations of my percieved validity. The truth will set you free, but first it will really piss you off.

I now have an understanding of myself that I believe is grounded in reality rather than a patently untrue belief system and I truly honestly believe that my mental health is ten times better for reaching this point. I know that my truth is nobody's truth but my own, but I still wish that more trans people could come to understand what I understand because I really think that they would be better off for it. It's a fucking hard journey, but the other side is much better.

AGuyCalledHelen · 29/08/2016 21:42

Beyond

Dysmorphia is where sombody has a distorted view of their physical appearance. They may believe that they are fat when they aren't. They may belive that their nose is enormous when it's actually perfectly in proportion.

Body dysphoria is the feeling of acute and persistent emotional distress at being in ones own body.

Of course dysmorphia can lead to dysphoria.

Getting the two mixed up is super common. Loads of people do it.

AGuyCalledHelen · 29/08/2016 21:44

And Paris Lees is a revolting misogynst - a classic example of a TW appropriating and parodying womanhood with his love of cat calling and praise for double penetration. He can fuck right off.

Yup. Paris Lees performs "woman" in the way that men think women should perform. They are totally antifeminist.

venusinscorpio · 29/08/2016 21:46

It will be a cold day in hell before I refer to Paris Lees as "she".

venusinscorpio · 29/08/2016 21:50

Expecting other people to engage in a sort of mass self-deception is not a reasonable or proportionate response. I appreciate that GID is horrible but there are umpteen physical and mental disorders in this world that are horrible and millions live with them.

YY a million times.

CharlieSierra · 29/08/2016 21:55

Prawn Star Star Star

PolterGoose · 29/08/2016 21:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AGuyCalledHelen · 29/08/2016 22:00

Expecting other people to engage in a sort of mass self-deception is not a reasonable or proportionate response. I appreciate that GID is horrible but there are umpteen physical and mental disorders in this world that are horrible and millions live with them.

The reason it's treated the way it is, is because of the high suicide rates amongst people with GID. I actually don't see this as an emotional blackmail response because I've been there myself and its fucking awful.

BUT we need to understand what is the cause of the suicidal feelings. What else can be done to help this person cope? I'm not talking about conversion therapy to suddenly make someone be able to plod on in the socially constructed male role. I'm talking about helping to accept themselves as trans and accept that this is OK for males. To help people suffering from this to deconstruct gender. To allow them to live an authentic life expressing themselves how they need to without the need to pretend that we are actually female and have been all along.

I think that transactivists have made a massive mistake by destigmatising a lie instead of destigmatising the truth.

It's not that it's Ok to be trans because we're actually women. It's that it's ok to be trans because gender is bullshit and it's OK for men to be like that.

Of course that ignores the body dysphoria aspect, but I do wonder how strong the dysphoria would be if we destigmatised gender non-conformity without using wrong sex / wrong body / wrong gender as part of the narrative?

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 29/08/2016 22:01

Thank you Helen :)

Can I ask a massively "what-about-ery" question to mnhq re intentional malicious misgendering...
Women often post on mn to work their heads around abuse that happens to them, it is far from rare. If Davina Ayrton's (or similar - there are after all women here with abusive former DHs who have become Mtt) victim posted and kept referring to her rapist as "he", would she be supported or told off and maybe even banned?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/08/2016 22:02

Bloody hell! I'm watching "I am Jazz" (I know, I know)and they've gone to this support group where a pile of teenagers are sitting around discussing what sort of surgery they are going to have. One girl who identified as gender fluid is going to have her breasts removed because she can pass as female without them, but can't pass as male with them. However she's not going to have a nipple grafts because she wants a blank slate chest, not a male or female chest. "That sounds like a political statement" says the group moderator. Cue lots of whooping and clapping from the kids in the group.

It just seems so wrong, at that age everyone is busy experimenting and figuring out who they are - surgery is just so permanent on what TBH seems like a trendy whim.

And I know some transwomen say they knew from the moment they were self aware that they were "in the wrong body" but how many kids convince themselves of this and go through irreversible surgery etc when they are confused rather than trans?

Sorry that was a bit ranty Blush

PolterGoose · 29/08/2016 22:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/08/2016 22:05

The reason it's treated the way it is, is because of the high suicide rates amongst people with GID.

Do you have any data on suicide rates pre and post transition? I sometimes get the impression that while in some cases surgery "fixes" the person, but in other cases it just highlights the impossibility of becoming a women and that in itself is pretty soul destroying.

microferret · 29/08/2016 22:08

Yep - that's how I feel about PL too. I still can't bear to call them "he", but I won't be using "she", ever. The catcalling article was the absolute worst. It is surely clear to anybody that the only reason PL enjoys being dehumanised as a sex object is because it validates their gender identity. As usual, women's rights are completely belittled and ignored for the whims of one narcissistic (male) individual.

Helen it's interesting that you mention the absent father as a possible cause of dysphoria, because a distant father and an affectionate mother is the familial setup that has been posited as a precursor to homosexuality in certain males. And an absent mother can have an analogous effect on females. I have a gay friend who thinks that the root of his sexuality lies in his father's coldness and his mother's contrasting warmth... In fact I know several gay men who had absent fathers, and I think that can create an affinity with females and a hankering after male affection. I think it's really sad that we can't explore these themes because it's politically dangerous. It would help us understand so much more about the human condition.

PolterGoose · 29/08/2016 22:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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