This is bullshit thread #3

[HornyTortoise]

Following on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716917-This-is-bullshit-Thread-2

Open ongoing discussion welcome for anyone to join in.

Just tried to reply to see max posts were reached, hope this is OK to do...

That ain't happening any time soon, though, and it makes me nervous when people assume the best response to gender discomfort is to alter the body

My issues had nothing to do with gender. It might do for others but as far as I am aware, gender implies 'women do this, behave that way, men do this, men behave that way'. That is not what my issues were.

I completely agree that we have to do some social fitting-in. What people do to achieve it (or get closer to it, anyway) depends heavily on the individual and their own social context - their identity.

There's no problem with this until someone starts demanding that other folks change or relinquish their identities or their bodies. Which is the problem I have with TW activism and its current achievements.

Ego, I was using lazy shorthand by calling it gender discomfort. I apologise. To me, it is gender discomfort because that's what my years of self-analysis have taught me about my anorexia and all the things my brother & I did to escape our impending roles of adult doom. But body dysphoria's a perfectly good term, too.

Helen yes totally, it's been forgotten and obscured, like most aspects of this subject, it's become about validation rather than what the safest solutions are for everybody.

Ego I agree it's unhelpful to talk about perfect world scenarios. Everyone deserves safety and dignity right now, not in some future utopia. I also think it's a bad idea to work in the opposite direction from these ideal solutions, which is how the TRAs are steering the discussion.

I was using lazy shorthand by calling it gender discomfort

Thanks

The NHS doesn't help - the clinics are called gender identity clinics which seems at odds with a society that wants to get rid of gender roles.

ego I'm confused though, if your issues did not stem from gender, then what do you think was the root cause? Can you pinpoint anything in your past that may have contributed to your feelings, or did they just come out of the blue?

I'm confused though, if your issues did not stem from gender, then what do you think was the root cause

I think I posted that before - with a 'I've no idea'. at 17:44

I have also - as has helen tried to explain the feelings on thread number 2

My apologies. I am trying to read all of the thread but I confess I may not be taking everything in, because I am trying to keep up in time to ask questions!. I did read Helen's bit about having very negative feelings towards the idea of being a man and maleness, and I thought I read something similar from you too (I might be wrong) so it would follow that these negative feelings come somewhat from gender, as there are a lot of lovely men out there, so it's more to do with what men represent than what individual men actually are. I just really want to understand where the roots of dysphoria lie, I suspect they are many and varied, but there must be some science to it.

I mean, you reacted very, very strongly against posters calling prominent TAs men - that suggests to me that "man" is an insult to you, and surely that is at least partly because you reject the norms associated with being a man? I'm happy to be corrected. I want to understand, not to tell you what you are.

ego don't you think the way you experienced gender in your upbringing has anything to do with where you've ended up?

This feels like the most constructive trans thread we've ever had.

It also feels like the discussion that society should be having. Maybe then it would get somewhere.

don't you think the way you experienced gender in your upbringing has anything to do with where you've ended up

Who knows? If I had had a different experience, would I be here now? I think that's an impossible question - it's nature vs nurture and I honestly don't know.

Ego147
My issues had nothing to do with gender.

I don't think the inclusion of the word gender is helpful in terms such as 'transgender', 'gender dysphoria' etc - some people clearly believe that those who are transgender are somehow choosing/reinforcing gender roles and stereotypes. In some people's eyes, gender being a social construct undermines the validity of being transgender. The term is misleading.

The term is misleading

I agree. I am not sure when transsexual became transgender. Or is transsexual part of transgender? I get confused sometimes about what people tell me I am supposed to be.

It would be possible to draw some conclusions if there were some consistencies between the experiences of MTTs such as growing up in conservative background or in an environment imbued with toxic masculinity, especially if one's parents are not supportive of being gender non-conforming, especially for homosexuals. Sadly this is a very common background for MTTs, especially the young gay boys being transitioned now.

I sympathise that some people may not want to identify as men, as a class. In some ways i struggle being identified, and treat as a (stereotypical) woman. Both ideas place certain expectations and responsibilities on people that they may not wish to accept. These ideas, of what it is to be a woman for example have never been more pushed upon me than when pregnant or a mother to a young child. Ive spent many days since loathing my biology and wishing i were a man. Until you realise that its society that is wrong, with its made up roles and assumptions.

I guess what I'm trying to say (which has undoubtedly been said many times before) is that people should be treat as humans no matter how they dress, what their interests are or what they call themselves.

What i won't do is collude in people's delusions that it is possible to change sex or have a female penis. To me that is a direct contradiction to scientific fact. Until women have true equality then i believe womens spaces should remain as such, as they exist as a measure to alleviate some of the structural oppression we face in daily life.

I have lurked on the trans and feminism threads for sometime, but never have felt able to voice my opinion (my issue). however i have been following the recent threads with interest and felt compelled to post my (somewhat garbled) opinion.

Ego, I'm sorry if I've laboured the point, and thanks for your patience. The reason I'm interested in the roots of dysphoria is because I think it's now taboo to even discuss it. I can understand why - it's similar to the debate about the origins of homosexuality; there is evidence to suggest that at least some individuals' sexual preferences are formed by early experiences, but it's a dangerous idea to discuss, because it leaves an opening for religious conservatives to insist that it can be unlearned (conversion therapy). And I know that TAs are really against any attempt to ease dysphoria with therapy - they call it conversion therapy too, even though it can often be helpful in inducing desistance. So I feel that the scientific community is going to ignore researching potential psychological causes of dysphoria because now it's only PC to talk about brain structure and other physiological effects. And I feel like this is a massive shame, because a better understanding of dysphoria could lead to much better modes of treatment and better outcomes for those whose dysphoria does not desist.

Is gender a word which now describes two different things?

One is more accurately called 'stereotype'. I'm not sure anyone identifies with a stereotype, but we all know what it in; nevertheless, it is not a part of us, of our personality, has nothing to do with our understanding of our own sense of self and who we are.

The other is something deeper and much more meaningful and personal, and is absolutely bound up with our sense of self, and others.

I think atm we use the word to mean either and both of these things and it doesn't help.

this is all v interesting ego. as I understood it the new wave transgender movement is about gender ie feelings and stereotypes rather than body dysphoria which it is not necessary to have? what you describe sounds different

My impression (which could be completely wrong) is that for some trans people gender is exactly what it's about, while for others it's more to do with sex dysphoria, and for some (most?) it's a complex mixture of the two.

The problems for women appear to be coming overwhelmingly from trans people who are not at all unhappy with their bodies, it's all about 'gender', and yes as a group these people do a lot of reinforcing of gender roles and stereotypes.

If it is all about gender (feelings) then i am totally non plussed as to how anyone would wish to transition to a woman. Why would you want to be 'treat as a woman'. Sorry i am a bit late to the thread but this just strikes me as er masochistic. For want of a better word.

I was never happy about the whole gender thing eg questions on forms used to ask for sex (biology) now ask for gender (imo personality) and then we are told they are the same.

Memoires I disagree. We all swim in a sea of gendered socialisation from the day we are born. It's as much a part of us and our personalities as anything else that has shaped who we are over the course of our lives. It's so all-pervasive that we can make little sense of ourselves and who we are without reference to it. That doesn't mean we're all comfortable with it or can't consciously reject it, but all those countless gendered experiences over the years are an inextricable part of who we are.

On the other hand - The other is something deeper and much more meaningful and personal, and is absolutely bound up with our sense of self, and others.

This sounds to me like god or souls or something. I don't have that sort of 'gender identity', I know some people who say they do but they seem unable to describe what it is. Maybe that's because it's so personal and deep, I don't know. I've nothing against people believing in that sort of gender if it enriches their life or sense of self, just as I've nothing against people believing in god or souls, but I won't live my life according to rules based on those beliefs.

pubegardens I agree with you. I really don't feel that deep meaningful sense of gender. I feel my life's experiences, my material reality. I don't feel some nebulous, mystical connection to femininity. I just happen to be a female human. For me gender is just stereotypes, nothing more.

The one thing that I think might make someone feel that they are the opposite sex is sexual orientation. I think if you feel attracted to the same sex, you might then feel more kinship with the opposite sex, because attraction tends to complicate things, especially relationships. So you might naturally feel more comfortable with the sex you don't fancy, because you don't have to worry about attracting them. I know that my DD was able to differentiate between men and women at a staggeringly early age, and that she has always been positively flirtatious (in the most innocent way possible) with handsome young men, frightened of older men, and comfortable with all women. So there is some clear evidence that she has already begun to feel an affinity with females, even as a baby.

It's part of the whole "can't say sex" thing - I've started to notice it in textbooks now, health stats on heart disease split by "gender"!! 🙄

Old school transsexual is a very different thing to the new genderists. They are the ones determined to reinforce stereotypes, rather than seeming to be affected by sex dysmorphia. I often half wonder if they are undercover MRAs!!