Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

It just means people who would be perceived as being capable of being able to gestate. SO yes, women. All of them. Infertile, not interested, creating their own football team.

All of us be-vaginaed people.

yes our thoughts and feelings should be consider more important than those of a delusional man who calls women cuntscum.

Seriously, who cares, adjustable? Many lesbians do not wish to sleep with men, however much on the surface they may appear to be women. There are others who do find trans women attractive and believe they are women. That's the simple fact and you are unnecessarily obfuscating it. It's a derail, unintended or otherwise. I'm sure people will be glad to post on any thread you wish to start about the nature of sexual attraction and the role of genitals. Can I suggest you do so rather than derail this one?

Usual lurker adding support.

Glad to see Hermione and Oscar still here. Long may you remain!

Oh and I think Owen Jones' response on Twitter made it clear how gay men would feel about being pressurised into sex with trans men. Funny that.

Please keep posting these threads. My eyes and many others have been truly opened.

I also have no problem with the notion that this is a site for mothers. What I do have a problem with is the specific statement I quoted that people who can't be mothers aren't apparently allowed to draw MN's attention to the breaking of rules by those who can.

FRETGNIKCUF, point me to where I said that this is the only thing I find slightly horrifying? If I really have to spell it out, yes, I find things like Ada's pronouncement extremely horrifying; but do we have to precede all our views with that sort of statement in intent on this thread?

As pointed out upthread, MN weren't trying to silence dissent. They said they wanted the thread to continue but asked people to comply with their stated rules on misgendering - which is their right, given that this is their site. I suspect that their decision was also motivated by the serious bullying that was happening by the end of the original thread.

A man who identifies as a woman is still a man. That is not the same thing as a woman.

(I can't believe I'm having to explain this)

I don't really know anything about trans men and women but I am just so shocked that anybody would say that a man (i.e has a penis) can call himself a woman just because he feels it. Can I call myself black then, just cos I feel it? How is that different? Seriously, not goading, how is that different?

It isnt

As a matter of interest, would people insist on calling Jan Morris "He"?

Bird - IMVHO opinion, it isn't

I hardly ever log in to post but am doing so on this occasion to say I also support the OP. That's about all I can add of any use save to agree with others that this is such an important topic. Use of language goes to the heart of everything and debate should not be shut down in this way. I think MNHQ's replies so far have not been at all helpful.

Far from being deleted, this thread should be moved from Chat so we don't lose yet another record of our collective unhappiness at this misogyny and curtailment of our rights as women.

It isn't different. But I doubt you'll get the same reaction.

Hermione
you're really over thinking this.
I'm just thinking.

Venus
I think I'm allowed to reply to things people say in response to things I've said. I don't think that's necessarily a derail. But feel free to ignore me.

NotMe
Is it a problem with the word 'notionally'?

As a matter of interest, would people insist on calling Jan Morris "He"?

I would try and use they, or their name. She is obviously incorrect. He would be potentially cruel.

But they are male, a man.

bird yes, you don't have to have any surgery or hormones to be classed as a woman and get a gender recognition certificate ((GRC). At the moment you do have to go through some hoops with doctors and "live as a woman" (whatever the fuck that means) for a period of time before you get your GRC.

Under proposals being considered, this process will change so all any man will have to do is say "I feel like a woman" and they will legally be so. Entitled to access women's hospital wards, use women's communal showers and changing rooms, stay in womens prisons (if convicted, obviously!), stay in DV refuges etc. You can be a 6'+ strapping male with a beard and penis and still legal,y be a woman because you say so. And removing you from the women's showers will be a hate crime.

The possibility of all of that exists under the current system, but at least a bit of process makes it less likely/easy.

This is the logical conclusion when you say that "woman" is a feeling.

Another lurker here, I want to show my total support. Well done OP, Oscar and others.
Yes, the term "cotton ceiling" is call for the rape of women. Yes, the term "female penis" is ridiculous and dangerous, as would "male vagina". Let's stop pandering to people who sound and act in a dangerously unhinged manner, and stop using their double-speak because we are scared. We owe ourselves and our daughters more self respect, ffs!

Bird this is an interesting interview with a transwoman: www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h

Is this seriously the battle MNHQ are choosing to fight? The line that's been drawn? Biological women who are oppressed and discriminated against because of that actual living biology VS anyone who says they're a woman/their pronouns and MN are choosing the latter? Seriously?

My pronouns are ffs, sheesh and eckythump.

In at least one other country, men, not trans, simply men, are using women's services because they prefer them to the services aimed at them. And there is nothing anyone can do to stop it.

I'm widening the bandwidth of how to be a woman
Says this fully bearded man.

Under proposals being considered, this process will change so all any man will have to do is say "I feel like a woman" and they will legally be so. Entitled to access women's hospital wards, use women's communal showers and changing rooms, stay in womens prisons (if convicted, obviously!), stay in DV refuges etc. You can be a 6'+ strapping male with a beard and penis and still legal,y be a woman because you say so. And removing you from the women's showers will be a hate crime.

That is horrifying as surely it is totally open to predatory males? I mean if people said "I feel like a 5 year old boy, I identify with that", would they be allowed unfettered access to 5 year old boys?

I'm all for being understanding of people's feelings, but this is just ridiculous. It's all rights and no obligations, one set of rights are allowed to trample another's and trample a group who are tyically disadvantaged anyway (women). This has all been eye opening and horrifying.

itsallgoingtobefine I've seen that video before. How patronizing, " broadening the bandwidth of what being a woman is"?? Germaine Greer was right when she said that misogyny has a lot to do with this.

Yes hunker MN are willing to alienate the hundreds of members who've posted here (and goodness knows how many more lurking) to fight for the right of rapist paedophile Davina Ayrton to call herself "she" and for Ada to call us cuntscum.

We are that far down the rabbit hole.

Sharing some photos of my fav TW criminals just so we're all clear who MN are aligned with here

He's widening the bandwidth of what it means to be a man, and that's awesome... gender stereotypes are oppressive bollocks that need smashing after all. But nothing about him is or ever will be remotely female, even if said bandwidth reaches out as far as the magellanic cloud.

birds if you're as angry as the rest of us are, write to your MP. A lot of MPs have had letters on this - they need to know their female voters are extremely concerned about this.

And yes, it's an absolute gift for predatory men and has already been used by them to covertly film and to assault women and girls.

Yes bird. It's already happening where rules have been relaxed.

mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/target-transgender-idaho-voyeurism.html?_r=0