Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

Birds, google Stefonknee Wolsch - Canadian 6 year old girl.

Birds - if you can stomach it Google stephoknee - Middle Aged man who identifies as a 5 year old girl.

Adjustable, no, it's a problem with the suggestion that no-one who is incapable of gestating has any right to ask MN to apply their own stated rules in relation to those who are capable.

Itsallgoing, Jan Morris has been accepted as "she" very widely for over 60 years, longer than she was known as "he" - including acceptance by the government when she was awarded a CBE, and by her partner and former wife. I suspect if you met her you would have no idea that she had not been born female. It would be highly offensive to insist on referring to her as "they".

"I thought I was pregnant the first time my stepdad fucked me up the arse - that's how disconnected from reality I am"

ItsAll - interesting interview. I found the last sentence so depressing, about how as a man he got no compliments on his appearance but as a women she frequently did. Leaving aside the obvious, is that what being a woman is about? Being told "you look nice"??

By the way, not suggesting that Stefonknee is in any way predatory. But they are an example of how far Identification rights' can be taken

Rural - love your name!

I can sort of understand someone who says they have always felt trapped in the wrong body and has surgery to try to change their body to become as close as they can to the desired sex, but that video is awful. I don't know how to express how it's awful.

He's widening the bandwidth of what it means to be a man, and that's awesome.

YY, that's the whole point (well one of them). The whole idea of gender/masculinity/femininity is what's wrong. It's absolutely fine for a man to like dresses, unicorns and pink, it doesn't mean they are somehow a woman.

No AdjustableWench, I just don't agree with the concept of the cotton ceiling regardless of its origins. Don't try to make out people are stupid, or not reading, or not understanding, just because they file this concept under B for Bullshit.

The author of the first link says its origins are around trans issues but that it can be widened, and also states:

" The Cotton Ceiling is NOT about “men” getting into women’s pants, it’s about women born male (i.e. trans women) being seen & accepted as women, equal to cis women. It is about calling out cis ppl of ALL sexual orientations (straight men, queer men, straight women, queer women, etc..) on their exclusion of trans ppl. It’s about gently encouraging a consideration of what shapes our “spheres of desire” as I call it (who is ‘fuckable’ or 'lovable’)."

I'm not sure what part of that you think I, or anyone else, is failing to understand or misinterpreting. The author thinks that people should be called out for not wanting to fuck trans people who identify as the gender those people prefer to fuck. I wholeheartedly disagree that anybody should be called out, individually or as a group, for not having another person within their "sphere of desire."

Sexual attraction is an intensely personal thing and women -and it was developed specifically in regard to women - should not have to consider their 'choice' (is attraction really a choice...debatable) to not be attracted to any person or group of people whether they're tall, short, fat, thin, disabled, trans, ,male, female, black, white, rainbow coloured, gorgeous or butt ugly. The whole concept of trying to encourage people to be attracted to a group they aren't attracted to by convincing them it's prejudiced not to be, is vile.

But then the author also states "there are two types of women, cis and trans" and I disagree with that too.

Jan Morris can blame all the bandwagon jumpers, social justice warriors and attention seekers for that situation then.

I suspect if you met her you would have no idea that she had not been born female.

I find that very unlikely given how obvious it is from a still image.

And I'm sorry, I know it is hurtful for the trans individual but I am an oddity who pathologically avoids lying, and colluding in the lie that a man is a woman, or that a man can become a woman sits very uncomfortably with me.

I think men can wear whatever they like, pink, unicorns, make up, I don't care. But that doesn't make them a woman.

^^"I think men can wear whatever they like, pink, unicorns, make up, I don't care. But that doesn't make them a woman."

THIS

When did men get to say they were women just cos they felt like it? Why aren't they just cross dressers? When did it become hate speech to say, no you are not a woman and therefore you can't come into women's safe spaces? I mean we can't all have what we want all the time, why do they have to have these rights just because they say they want them. I want equal pay, hey I feel like a man, can I have it now?

I found the last sentence so depressing, about how as a man he got no compliments on his appearance but as a women she frequently did.

I found the whole article quite sad, and illustrative if why many decide they are trans. Interestingly though, and this is often apparent in trans ideology it is also very confused. Alex talks about "And if a child sees me and thinks, “Bloody hell, so it’s not as simple as pink or blue or football or ballet – there must be 101 possibilities in between,”" but then shows he thinks gender is a binary...

Sorry, I'm sure this is all obvios to a lot of people, I've not really been aware of any of this until very recently, I'm just a bit blown away by it all and where it's all going. Very alarming.

When did men get to say they were women just cos they felt like it? Why aren't they just cross dressers?

It's interesting isn't it. When I was wee there was no transgender. There were transexuals who had body dysmorphia and bottom surgery to "change sex" and there were transvestites who dressed up in womens clothes as a fetish. Now they both sit uncomfortably together under the transgender umbrella.

Another adding support

Yes, when I was growing up we talked about people being transexual (i.e they had sex change surgery) or they were transvestites, usually men who wore women's clothing or who lived "as women" but didn't have sex change surgery. I never heard any of them claiming to be actual women.

I do find a lot of it very contradictory - I know trans does encompass a very wide spectrum of people and that there are many trans individuals who try to live in a way which is as consistent as possible with the gender they have chosen (i.e. they don't want to stand out as trans)

But on the flip side there are a hell of a lot who don't seem to know which argument they're having from one minute to the next. If gender is binary and you think you should have been a woman, then surely you would want to conform to that gender as closely as possible? If you think gender is non-binary (like plenty here who think gender is bollocks) then why would you need to identify as the other gender at all, surely you would just live as you wished? Why is there this sudden explosion of people identifying as a lesbian non-binary trans woman with a beard and penis? At least be consistent!

Don't be sorry, bird, a lot of this has gone under the radar unchallenged for a lot of people, and we're only now waking up to the implications of these changes.

I was angry this morning, but coming back to this thread this afternoon, I'm happy to see so many women standing together and shouting NO!

A woman's NO is a powerful thing.

Bird and anyone else new to this topic, these are just two of the many great websites out there:

www.sexandgenderintro.com

www.thenewbacklash.blogspot.com

Enjoy them, get angry, write to your MP.

Yeah thats pretty much where I am now tbh, I have been all over the place with my thoughts on this today as I honestly did not know anything about this cotton ceiling stuff, nor the abuse lesbians face for daring to say no to a penis. But now I am at the stage where blokes who like to dress as women as simply crossdressers. A trangendered person would not want to keep their male body. I know one person who has had surgery for this and he said his female body absolutely disgusted him as he knew it was wrong. I am kind of of the opinion that someone genuinely 'trapped in the wrong body' would not be happy with simply using womens bathrooms and such, expecting lesbians to fuck them, wearing dresses and wigs occasionally, and being known as she.

Oscar ❤❤❤

Taxes excellent idea re drawing my initial post about DD to HQ's attention. I shan't hold my breath for a response, but maybe it'll be food for thought. Although again, I shan't hold my breath.

I too will always refuse to call a be-penised person her/she/they/xi/xey/whatever. Because there's already a name for what people like that are, and it's male. So he/him it is. And do you know what, if I get banned, so be it.

But MNHQ, know this: if I were to be banned, my DD, who had already suffered horribly for standing up for herself and others for being female/gay (and oh my god I thought those days were over) will once again be sent a very clear message, as will many, many other young girls. And that message is, men rule the world. Men are better women than women are. Know that in all things, a penis will always be better and more deserving of respect than a vagina. That some will always be more equal than others.

THAT is the message you're sending, very loudly and clearly, to us - and, more chilling still, to our daughters.

Every time a Twitter user threatens to 'cave in' a teenage girl's head for objecting to the term 'cis scum', every time one of our gay teenage daughters is told she must allow a penis inside her or she's a TERF bitch who deserves to die, you're right behind it.

I wonder if anyone at HQ stops and thinks for a second about the ramifications of their misogynistic, TA appeasing stance. I fucking wonder.