Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

I find the name 'Mumsnet' highly offensive! You should respect my individual wishes and call your site, 'cis-woman-parents.net', otherwise, you're transphobic!

OscarDeLaYenta

I salute you. What a fantastic post. I doubt you will get a reply though sadly.

And it's ok to offend people who identify with the gender they were born with, apparently.

There have been literally hundreds of posts saying they agree MNHQ.

Maybe three who don't?

Short of my MIL kicking a baby in a parent and child parking space is there anything that would have such overwhelming agreement?

So what are you going to about it? Ban all of mum snet for knowing that babies come out of human females Change the official language to "chest" feeding, talk about pregnant people?

I don't post much but I wanted to add my support for the OP and other posters. I have been openly speaking up about this in real-life for a few months now, but I wouldn't dare on social media.

I also find the use of cis extremely offensive. I'm a woman - it doesn't need qualifying by some misogynist terminology.

Oh the irony of people at least notionally capable of gestating being silenced on the request of one not ever even notionally so, on a site called "Mumsnet".

I find this slightly horrifying. Are we saying that there is some sort of hierarchy on this site with those who are capable of gestating at the top of the heap? And that the view of those who are not capable of doing so are to be ignored? Does being able to gestate give you carte blanche to be offensive to any given minority who cannot gestate?

MNHQ Please let us know where you stand on the specific points raised on this thread. It's not possible to remain neutral on this subject, TRAs have made sure of that.

Are these sentences bannable offences?

penis is male

woman = adult human female

Oscar I'm loving your work

So MN, what's your answer?

Not me

That's the thing you find horrifying???

Fuck me.

Felascloak

Yes, I agree that the genitals we expect someone to have are highly significant for attraction (I suppose to most people it seems obvious). And I don't know about whether that's in issue in attraction / non-attraction to fat people, but I think it might be an issue in ideas about the desirability of people with disabilities - at least, with many visible disabilities.

My sense of the issue is that there's some dissonance around trans people: that in addition to the question of genitals there's often a discomfort that centres around how well a person passes as either male or female (but not both).

It seems to be different from other forms of gender non-conforming (butch, camp etc), and I'm not sure why. And at the other end of the scale it's fetishised, eg in certain kinds of trans porn, as someone mentioned up-thread.

So yes, genitals are important. But it seems like there's other stuff going on too.

I think you're missing the point, NotMe. It's not that people able to gestate should be privileged over everyone in general, it's that their voices shouldn't be silenced, should indeed be heard loud and clear, on a site that calls itself 'MUMSnet'.

There are trans sites elsewhere where other minorities can make themselves heard.

Yes literally notme. The people who have had 6+ children are carried around on chairs and praised with sweets and fruit.

Non-gestater here. Not offended by idea that mumsnet is primarily a place for mums. I come for style & beauty, feminism, sussing out things I can't think where else to look for them. Happy to help.

notme please take your faux "horror" elsewhere

Nobody has said that being pregnant and giving birth makes you better on MN.

I'm an infertile woman with adopted kids, so a non gestator to use your language. The point is that a site which is aimed at women, most of whom have used their female biology to reproduce, is now aligning itself with the idea that "woman" is a feeling, not a biological loved reality, and silence women who dissent.

Of course passing will matter in sexual attraction as well. If someone looks like a man and you are only attracted to women, you are unlikely to be attracted to them.

Of course mumsnets primary audience is mums. Yes others are welcome. But it is aimed at mums.

Adjustable.

How can it be more than the person you want to have sex with having sexual organs you like???

If my husband had a small penis I wouldn't have married him. Genitals are important

Thank you to everyone who has raised these issues it's one that I have been blissfully ignorant about.

I've been completely outraged reading through the various threads, especially what was happening in Edinburgh University.

Go Oscar!

YABU MN, YABU

NotMe321

I read 'notionally capable of gestating' as meaning 'adult [human] females'. I didn't think it was a slur on any women who can't gestate. Was that your problem? Or something else?

It's not just an attraction to vulvas that makes me a lesbian, no. Though that's important, and non-negotiable when it comes to sex.

It's the whole package that is being s woman, including - vitally - having been socialised to negotiate and work together in mutuality rather than to expect their voice to be heard and their wishes, ultimately, to trump mine.

I've had partners across the whole range from very 'feminine' to very 'masculine' women and the thing is, they're all women. There is a smell, a texture, a dynamic with them that will never happen with a man. I've had sex with men too and enjoyed it, when much younger, but it was a wholly different and, for me, inferior experience to sex with a woman.

But I'm just a transphobic cuntscum with an impenetrable cotton ceiling, no?

adjustable you're really over thinking this.

A butch woman is still a woman, identifiable as a woman. Being GNC doesn't make her a trans man.

A man who identifies as a woman is still a man. That is not the same thing as a woman.

(I can't believe I'm having to explain this)

If someone is exclusively attracted to women, they are unlikely to find a feminine man an acceptable sexual partner.

If someone is exclusively attracted to women, you don't know whether they are going to like tall women, short women, thin women, fat women, funny women, quirky women, women with tattoos etc. But those are all subgroups of women.

Now wondering about the size of FRETGNIKCUF's husband's penis.

How can it be more than the person you want to have sex with having sexual organs you like???

Well, I've been attracted to many people whose sex organs I've never seen. So I suppose I would tend to hope that if I saw their sex organs I would be delighted. But there are no guarantees. Attraction seems to precede genital engagement, at least in my experience. But I agree that expectations about genitals are likely to play a role in attraction.