Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

When did we get to this? One minute women are fighting to be called Ms on a form, fighting for maternal health, pay gap, some semblance of equality.

Now we are having to fight to say our biology is the root of our oppression and that being female is not something you can want, you just are?

It's like magic.

Dark magic.

What we were fighting for is now being used against us and co-opted

And Mumsnet will you be campaigning to make sure we can still be called mothers when we are pregnant? Maybe if we miscarry we can be greiving mothers?

Oh my god.

Where to fucking start.

this person is not a woman.

True they are not. They are not a man either. They are a they, there are lots of mixed up and messed up thems in this "they" and when this "they" gets older and matures a bit then this they will realise that their mess is all over the internet for the world to see and to haunt them for the rest of their lives. Poor them.

Mumsnet need to change name to Birthingparents.net to avoid transphobia.

"Them" and "they" were originally masculine plurals etymologically speaking, before they were used to describe either/or.

Ironic really.

I linked to stuff about the origin of the phrase 'cotton ceiling' earlier in the thread. Maybe you didn't want to read the links. That's fine. It's not my phrase and I have no attachment to it.

However, I do think that when abusive trans activists misuse it against lesbians they should be called to account, and I think it's more effective to use their own language against them. So for me the discussion of wider meanings of 'cotton ceiling' is a political device. Doesn't work for everyone. Fair enough.

Also, I am really interested in the idea that some groups of people are less desirable than others - probably because I'm fat and disabled.

Your implication is that sexuality is somehow doesn't include sex. It does.

Autistic children have a 90% chance of being hideously
Bullied at school.

But they're just not as cool as trans kids and so schools do fuck all.

Also, I am really interested in the idea that some groups of people are less desirable than others - probably because I'm fat and disabled.

Sexuality is not defined by attraction to fat or disabled people of any sex

It is defined by sex.

This is a hugely important issues for all women - and MN should be at the forefront of intelligent debate, not being cowed into submission by a very vocal minority

That's one of the more depressing aspects about this: that a successful business run by women for (mostly) women is not prepared to speak up about this misogyny and gradual silencing of women.

60% of girls are sexually assaulted at school. No one cares about that either. It's all the cis privilage they have with their female bodies. .

Also...
please educate us silly women

What? Where did that come from? I don't think anyone on this thread is silly, and I'm not trying to educate anyone. I might have a different take on some stuff, but I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

If it's a response to my comment about the term being misused and oversimplified, that comment was directed against those abusive trans activists who misuse and oversimplify the term, as I did earlier in the thread. Not against anyone here.

That's one of the more depressing aspects about this: that a successful business run by women for (mostly) women is not prepared to speak up about this misogyny and gradual silencing of women.

It's even worse than that, they are actively participating in silencing us.

FANTASTIC posts from OscarDeLaYenta

Agree trini. If we can't talk about the reality of womanhood being rooted in our biology on MUMsnet, where the fuck can we?

Men are better humans and transwomen are better women. Anything that deviates from that is wrong.

This is where we are at.

MNHQ: You do realise that forcing us to call rapists and paedophiles 'she' and 'woman' and therefore writing incorrect sentences such as 'a woman was convicted of rape' is part of the MRA agenda? The same MRA agenda that has attacked you, both as a corporate entity and as private individuals with families? You do realise that, don't you?

And if we are allowed to refer to MTT who rape (either pre or post transition) as 'he' is as 'they', then this is inconsistent of you. If you truly believe that MTT are women, because womanhood is defined as 'felling like a woman', then you cannot withhold this from those 'women' who commit crimes. It has to be across the board. Or are we to withdraw the right to be called a woman from 'biological women', AKA women, from those who commit crimes that are beyond the pale?

So, please MNHQ, decide. Do you believe that 'a woman committed rape with her penis' is a linguistically meaningful utterance that accurately reflects reality? Do you believe that the MRA agenda is consistent with your mission statement?

Again, reporting. Please decide.

I am really interested in the idea that some groups of people are less desirable than others - probably because I'm fat and disabled.
I don't think non-attraction to trans people is the same as non-attraction to e.g. fat people. There is a cause for the non-attraction to trans people, which is that as a class lesbians and straight men are attracted to vulva people, and gay men and straight women are attracted to penis people. Trans people belong to one class but want to be accepted by the other. If a man says "I'm gay" I'm not going to even bother approaching him sexually as it's obvious my vulva will be a huge turn off.
Whereas attraction or not to a characteristic like being fat is an individual preference and there is no way to tell whether or not someone will find that attractive in a sexual partner.
Conflating the two things just causes confusion where there really doesn't need to be any.

Ohhhh. Like it. Oscar.

OscarDeLaYenta has put it brilliantly above. I agree that we need to know exactly where MN stands on this issue, so that we can make an informed choice about whether we want to stay here.

I don't wish to be banned, primarily because I would no longer be able to offer support to women trapped in abusive relationships. But I am not prepared to pay lip service to the lie that transgender women are women. Gaslighting is a form of abuse.

If I'm going to get banned (and if Posie did and Hermione was threatened with a ban, I don't see how I cannot), I'm going out with a bang.

Fuck it.

I really really don't understand this. Why would lesbians want to fuck a person with a penis? Whether they wear dresses and call themselves a woman, it's not really the point, is it? As far as I have always understood it a lesbian is a person who is attracted to a person with female genitalia (vulva, vagina, breasts) why would they be attracted to a person with a penis?
How has this come to be, that men (because if you are human and have a penis you are a man, I don't care how you "identify") are allowed to just decide they are women and tell women they must allow themselves to be fucked whether they want to be or not??? Cotton ceiling? Dear God, it's just rape, isn't? We have the right to smash our penis through your knickers and we expect you to enjoy it.
Total male domination.

Applauds Oscar