Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

I'm not going to leave MN over this - I'm not sure where else there is that provides a platform for broad debates that is also (comparatively) lightly moderated (have you tried posting on the Guardian CiF site, for example...?). And I get help and support - and entertainment - from other sections beyond the Feminist Chat / _chat sections. And I've always been one to stay and argue rather than flounce anyway

But I am so so disappointed in some of the recent banning decisions, and hope that you will allow Special and Posie to return

Also posting to add my support to the OP.
It's hard enough being a woman without having our language stolen from us.

This thread is moving too fast for me!

It's a simple concept
Yes of course, when misused and oversimplified.

Thanks for your concern, but I get through life just fine .

This situation is ludicrous.

Mumsnet, you seem to have lost the plot here, I'm afraid.

Which is a great shame, because over the dozen or so years I've posted on this site (latterly far less, but was, shall we say, prolific for a few years back there #MNroyalty #tonguefirmlyincheek), it's really been somewhere sensible women debate tricky things (sometimes in a heated fashion, but def with a strong backbone of no-nonsense excellence, with the tone so often well-set by MN staff).

I genuinely can't see why the bending over backwards to accommodate male fantasy is occurring now, at the expense of your actual demographic.

I am posting in support of the OP. And, honestly, Justine et al - have a good long look for the plot, please. It needs finding asap here.

Oh

I support OP on this. And, following the Exalted One's example, I am henceforth 'Her Most Royal and Important Princess Love and Light of Valhalla' . Don't make me report you for mis identifying me.

Oh the irony of people at least notionally capable of gestating being silenced on the request of one not ever even notionally so, on a site called "Mumsnet".

Could t
Not
Make
That
Shit
Up

Hmmm...... NC might be in order here.

That's me banned then .

So glad to see so many women making a stand!!!

Haha.... Good luck with attempting to silence us. Not going to happen is it!?

Oh and I won't ever ever use the hideous 'cis'

Posie has been banned? But Posie is "MN Royalty"

This is the most important thing I've ever learnt on MN. That people can identify as any gender they like and everyone else women have to kowtow.
Men are allowed to shout foul abuse at lesbians who don't want to have sex with them
Male people can win women's races at the Olympics and women have to shut up about it. And on and on...
I'm the least clued up person on feminist issues you can imagine but I support you OP.

• has to kowtow

Yes of course, when misused and oversimplified.

When exactly does the term "cotton ceiling" ever have a legitimate use? How can it be "misused and oversimplified"? It's really quite clear, to anyone who isn't very obtuse.

"it's a perfectly logical conclusion of trans ideology."

Yes, and it reminds me of mathematical equations that end with 1 = 2, for example. You see that result and you know that the initial equation was wrong.

In other words, starting out with "Transwomen = Women", you end with "Lesbians are attracted to Women so they must be attracted to Transwomen". But they are not. So?

So, the answer should not be to force Lesbians into spreading their legs for Transwomen. It should be checking the initial hypothesis (T = W) because if the result doesn't make sense in solving such a short equation, it usually means that the equation was wrong to start with.

When I look at my account page on here, I have the choice of male or female for my gender.

Triggered, right there. I'm "badmousegender" ffs.

Also, please change it to "chest and bottlefeeding" this instant. References to breastfeeding must all cease and desist on nongenderedcaregiver.net, surely?

Or is that a bit...ridiculous?

Its "legitimate use" is to guilt trip young lesbians into thinking they are transphobic so they will consider trans women as sexual partners.

adjustable please educate us silly women on the correct use of cotton ceiling please?

Oscar brilliantly put

Yes, was just wondering how adjustable would manage to find one.

The problem is, unless someone starts insisting that womanhood is a very specific, defined thing, soon it officially won't be.

Yes. This, a thousand times. My sex is not a linguistic folly.

Another posting in support.

And I find the cotton ceiling concept totally abhorrent. No individual or group should be in any way pressurised to have sex with another - nor should the reasons for their lack of attraction to an individual/group be scrutinised in such a way that they are made to feel like they are being prejudiced.

Lesbians are attracted to women. Full stop. The reality is that in most cases transwomen are identifiable as not being born female. There are exceptions, but the majority of TW do not truly pass as female and so lesbians who are attracted only to women would inherently not feel attraction to people who have identifiably male characteristics - isn't there an evolutionary reason why we're fairly able to identify even a well concealed male? I'm not sure what's so shocking about that, really.

There are a smaller subset of TW who are able to appear female, in just the same way as there are some women (or indeed transmen) who can be very masculine in appearance and could be mistaken for being male. I'm a straight female. If I meet a masculine looking woman it's feasible I could be attracted to them initially but then not want to have any sort of sex with them because I don't do vulvas, sorry. It is just as much my right to say "I like cock" as it is a lesbian woman's to say "no cock, ta very much". There's nothing awful, or prejudiced, or in need of exploration.

Sexual attraction is what it is, and even discussing at a population level why lesbian women don't want to have sex with TW places pressure on those women to do so - especially amongst younger women who are more easily made to feel inadequate/prejudiced/whatever by the world of tumblr and twitter. The cotton ceiling concept is vile.

Cote that's an excellent analogy.

So, the answer should not be to force Lesbians into spreading their legs for Transwomen. It should be checking the initial hypothesis (T = W) because if the result doesn't make sense in solving such a short equation, it usually means that the equation was wrong to start with.

YYY. Exactly.