Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

Two bepenised people (it would seem) have come to tell us we are wrong.

This shit is bananas
B a n a n a s

we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

Used to feel able to have that debate MN. Now the debate goes poof even when that's not what the debate was about

AdjustableWench does that (misgendering/equality act) apply to anyone who declares they are trans or only to people who have had a new birth certificate issues under the gender recognition act?

(honest question btw!)

Deliberate misgendering is a violation of the Equality Act. So yes, no one can force us to call Ada Wells a woman. But if we insist on calling Ada Wells a man, we will be on the wrong side of the law.

I challenge you to provide legal precedent that shows that "woman" and "man" refers only to gender (inside head) and not to sex (biology). Because everything I understand about normal English usage of those terms says that woman/man refer to both sex and gender.

I don't really get transwomen saying that they are women and have always been women and have been socialized as women and then pout and throw a huge fucking tantrum when someone doesn't want to touch their dicks.

If that's not the thought pattern of someone socialized as a man I don't know what is...

Self identification is not yet written into the equality act. Transsexualism as a medical diagnosis is.

we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

We can't though, that's the fucking point.

You just delete it all the time.

I've seen women referred to as 'cis' against their wishes on threads before. I'm not sure those posts were deleted for misgendering.

I'm still at a loss to understand why THEY haven't been arrested for spouting what they have. It is clearly defined as a Hate Crime in Scottish law:

"The Scottish Government defines Hate Crime as crime committed against a person or property that is motivated by ‘malice or ill-will towards an identifiable social group’."

Clearly THEY show malice or ill-will towards an identifiable social group. Therefore THEY have committed a crime. Therefore THEY are a criminal.

MNHQ, I would also like you to clarify if you also see mis-labelling as "cis" (which many people here find wildly offensive and is not considered a generally accepted antonym for trans outside certain circles) as phobic and to be removed under talk guidelines.

But other people experience other types of being a woman. It's not just about the vagina. Of course, to me as a female with a vagina it is intertwined with my identification of woman as I have a vagina and it has been taught to me from a young age that it and other female parts made me a 'girl' or a woman. Some people have treated me as less then equal because of my vagina and blamed it on me being 'just a girl' or on my womanhood.

But I would say that other women who have biological differences eg lack of vagina or hormonal differences but still itdentify as woman are still women. But some of them will be male, having male parts. Then we need to say 'male only' changing rooms or 'female only' along with 'mix-sex' changing rooms. I don't fear all males, only the dangerous ones. I also have reason to fear dangerous females (with vaginas) as I have been assaulted by them too as a child/in adolesence.

It's bloody confusing because we have social constructs that are built up around sex and gender is one of them. But, I still say a hater is a hater. If someone others and talks hate talk to attack and calls it self defence that is wrong. No one should control others' rights to exist peacefully as they want to. They should however shout out 'no' if someone is trying to oppress others by saying they are scum because they have vaginas. Or penises. Or neither or both.

This is just beyond absurd, It really is. It's all sorts of pixie fairy dust cray-cray that we are living in this hushed tones 'the truth gets you deleted' mumsnet society.

Do we need to have some sort of 'I'm Spartacus!' Uprising? I'm Woman, those with penis need not stand up.

Can I ask (if it hasn't actually been clarified anywhere) what IS actually a transgender person?

I always understood it to be (say in the example of M-F) someone who felt they were born in the wrong body and was undertaking hormone therapy and surgery to change their body.
Making the 'transition' as it were.

How can someone be 'trans' if they aren't undergoing or have undergone the transition?

Genuine question because I want to understand at what the defining point is of someone who identifies as trans.

Adjustable

Oh please. Do not spread false readings of legislation. Deliberate misgendering is not a violation of the Equality Act in these circumstances. Not covered by Section 7.

Everything is transphobic. You'll have to delete all your posts referring to female biology now MN if you're going to be consistent.

Toptoe, No one here is saying an intersex woman is not a woman. They are saying that a man who feels like a woman is not a woman.

So yes, no one can force us to call Ada Wells a woman. But if we insist on calling Ada Wells a man, we will be on the wrong side of the law.

The problem is, unless someone starts insisting that womanhood is a very specific, defined thing, soon it officially won't be.

Clearly the Olympic intersex controversy is a separate and parallel issue to transsexual debates but the point has been made several times this week in respect of that that we are moving towards a situation in which 'man' means 'man and 'woman' means 'everyone not a man'.

Those of us who find that alarming aren't automatically bigots.

So, is there anyone on the thread yet who thinks MNHQ's comment via Kiran actually adequately clarifies or explains anything about all this?

No, thought not.

cheerful If someone gets angry because another won't touch their dick then they are an aggressive, unkind person. It doesn't matter if they say they are woman or man or they. They might say it matters. But it doesn't. All that matters is that they are another person trying to force someone to do something they don't want to do.

Also agree there is a great deal of genderising by others going on throughout childhood and adolesence eg girls are weak, girls are sexualised etc etc that becomes part of how we view ourselves. Males who transition to woman have not experienced that. But all of a sudden they will and must hit them like a ton of bricks. Not only that, they then have females saying they don't understand what it's like to be othered and of course during and after transition they do.

If someone gets angry because another won't touch their dick then they are an aggressive, unkind man.

Fixed that for you.

Talking about same-sex marriage or same-sex anything else is transphobic because IT'S ALL ABOUT GENDER.

What shins said. Well done OP.

Shins, Ada's name is google-able