Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

Back with my new username.

A person with a penis telling a person with a vagina that they must allow penises into that vagina or else....

Oldest story in the world. Told by (yet another) woman-hating man

Toptoe, if being female isn't a feeling, why would it be reasonable for a man to identify as a woman?

Can we get a petition or something going to the HOL to change these ridiculous laws that allow people who happen to identify with being a woman (but aren't) into prisons and refuges and sports?
There must be something we can do.

Morning everyone,

There have been a number of recent threads on transgenderism, with strong views all round. We know some of you are unhappy with how we have handled them, so we thought it might be useful for us to clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now. The key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic - and we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

In recent days, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she/they) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. We tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose - and we at MNHQ will be discussing all the points you’ve raised about this.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate. We are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible.

Good post stephanie. I'm envious of the eloquence and concise nature of many posters on here

the point seems to be, it is OK for a man to slip on a frock and 'identify as a woman' and be as vile and insulting and exclusive as they like to real women, including using the word 'cuntscum' towards us, but we must be very very careful to always use the correct pronoun when we talk about them, in case they are offended? or any messages will be deleted.
Is that the case?

This....

Yes please do discuss all the points we've raised about this, MNHQ. And try to understand that your social responsibility is not just to trans people but also to women, as I said earlier. Because right now I don't see evidence of that.

If your belief is that you can 'identify' as a gender and that all of us identify as a gender BUT THAT I CAN'T argue that point, what you are actually saying is that I agree with gender and that your right to say that I do trumps my right to say it's bullshit.

How the fuck is that free speech. How is that not simple misogyny? How is it actually "trans-misogyny".

Your right to claim womanhood is more important than my right to say womanhood is the experience of being a woman with a vagina in our society,.

Kiran says: "We tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose"

Fine. I hereby declare myself to be a badger. I don't wish to declare whether I am a male badger or a female badger, so don't wish to be referred to as He or She or Him or Her and I don't like They. Can you please all refer to be as It from now on.

Thanks.

Maybe we should just refer to everyone as "it" from now on and be done with it?

MNHQ, you need to clarify if you see a difference between deliberate misgendering of someone on the thread (which I absolutely agree is a personal attack) and misgendering of someone not on the thread for the purposes of debate about what it really means to be female/male/woman/man (as in this thread). If people are allowed to take offence to the latter on behalf of someone not even present, and therefore shut down important debate, where does it end?? It becomes silencing not maintaining a civil tone.

kiran .......

the point seems to be, it is OK for a man to slip on a frock and 'identify as a woman' and be as vile and insulting and exclusive as they like to real women, including using the word 'cuntscum' towards us, but we must be very very careful to always use the correct pronoun when we talk about them, in case they are offended?

If someone who happens to be homosexual makes anti-Semitic remarks, or calls a specific subset of people a nasty name, it doesn't become OK to make homophobic remarks about them.

Suspect that is similar here. If a transwoman made offensive remarks about some lesbians and some anti-seimetic remarks etc etc, well that doesn't make it OK to start being transphobic to them. (Which includes refering to them as he.)

we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic

MNHQ, could you please clarify what you consider to be transphobic? For example:

Is saying that you cannot change your sex transphobic?

Is saying that a transwoman is male transphobic?

Is saying that women do not have penises transphobic?

I'm gonna take a wild stab in the dark that you don't get it.

cheerful yes, that's not right because gender should not affect punishment. I can see why it's a problem if one gender does not have the same punishment as the other.

Come on MNNHQ it is not deliberate misgendering it is factually saying you have a cock and balls and are therefore a man.

JAPAB, you just misgendered them, they are not a transwoman.

Women have to have the language to name their oppression. This is a critically important point for women's rights. We have to be able to make a distinction between women and men.

Do transwomen actually get free boob jobs from the NHS? Being American we don't have that, but if it's true then not only am I now a transwoman, I'm an ENGLISH transwoman.

lesbianplusfeminist.wordpress.com/2016/08/14/only-people-who-subscribe-to-gender-ideology-can-misgender/#comments

Toptoe, gender isn't really REAL though.

Deliberate misgendering is a violation of the Equality Act. So yes, no one can force us to call Ada Wells a woman. But if we insist on calling Ada Wells a man, we will be on the wrong side of the law. And I suppose it's possible that this legal situation around misgendering is one of the reasons why MNHQ delete threads - I don't know.

For me the most important issue is when some trans activists, like Ada Wells, misuse the idea of the cotton ceiling to attempt to exclude or coerce lesbians who do not want to have sex with trans women. Clearly that's horrific.

The idea of the cotton ceiling isn't just about trans people - it's the idea that some people in society are considered sexually undesirable because of their minority status - so yes, trans women, but also fat women, disabled women, women of colour etc. It has virtually no political application except as a point of discussion, since no one can reasonably be coerced into sexual activity with someone who is fat, disabled, Black, or indeed trans.

In short, the way some trans activists use the idea of the cotton ceiling is misguided at best, and at worst violent.