Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

The other point about keeping the discussion visible on MN is that (whether we like it or not) , journalists from mainstream media, as well as the Fail and daytime TV/radio programmes, do read it. As Cheerful Yank says, it's vitally important that the wider world understands that we're not protesting from some fundamental extremist religious or political viewpoint - we are just trying to ensure that women do not lose the rights which protect us when we are vulnerable, and that we are allowed to exist in our own right, not as some inferior male-defined group of not-men.

Incidentally, in support of the decent trans people I know quietly getting on with their lives - I can see why one might choose not to have bottom surgery. It is very complex, and has varying degrees of success. I recently read the information sheet on FTM recontructive surgery, and pretty much all of them involve some loss of sexual function. There's quite a high likelihood that you'll need follow up surgery at a later date.

So I can quite see why people would choose not to tinker with their genitals. And I can see that it must be frustrating to have your potential dating pool shrivel up to near zero by making that decision. I lose patience, however, when they insist I refer to a penis as a ladystick, or try to coerce lesbians into having penetrative sex with said ladystick!

Posting before this disappears to say I agree 100% with the OP. This is men silencing women. Nothing new, and as per usual women are expected to tolerate it.

I don't believe that anyone can change sex and I don't believe in misgendering as a concept, the way it is used by the majority. I believe that when talking to or about trans people I know personally I should use their preferred pronouns out of politeness and respect to them as individuals. However I don't believe in non binary gender and I don't believe I should be compelled to refer to a fully intact male person whom I have never met as 'she'. On mumsnet I use 'they' to avoid being deleted because being deleted is frustrating but I do not believe it.

The religion analogy is a good one.

If you are or will be physically capable of penetrating another body with your penis, you're male.

If you are or will be physically capable of being penetrated in your vagina, you're female.

You can choose to call yourself Flamingo the Wondrous, dress entirely in a smock made of orange sequins and be sexually attracted to whoever you want within the law and I will respect that - so long as you respect me, and my right to call myself Page and wear female clothing and be attracted to men, in return.

Calling me and those like me "cuntscum" and shutting down individuals' right to be attracted to whoever they're attracted to is NOT being respectful. And therefore this person has forfeited their right to my respect, pronouns and all.

Another one here in support.

I hate how trendy it is to shut down women's voices. I just hope (said as someone in their late 20s, who used to say things like "I'm a humanist, because I'm for equality") that by the time the 20 year olds who think feminists are stinky old man-hating dinosaurs realise that their blind support of the misogynistic agenda that's currently being pushed is bullshit, it's not too late.

Also posting in support.

Another posting in support.

I think these awful people are doing a real disservice to trans people trying to get on with their lives.
I think much of the issue is the word gender is being used instead of sex, when people actually mean sex.
If someone wants to be called he/she then it is fair enough.
The status of male/female doesn't change though.
The nasty language used against lesbians is really unpleasant too but I am pretty sure in a couple of years time we will be looking back on this period and everyone will have come to their senses. It is almost as if biology isn't known about, what on earth are they teaching kids in schools these days - of course correct biology! It is just a few ill educated people doing this and causing issues for everyone else.

I've forgotten who was banned last night for making what others thought was a fair comment?

This whole thread is going to be deleted, I'd almost stake my life on it

And if it is, that will be a definite indicator of precisely which mast MNHQ are nailing their colours to.

Placemarking to see how MNHQ respond to this one.

It's so fucked up. All of it. "Safe spaces", cotton ceilings, cuntscum, misgendering, girl dicks, it's all bullshit. Misogynist, harmful bullshit.

But because it hurts women (note: not CISwomen, not "born women", not "female-identifying women", JUST WOMEN), it doesn't matter. As long as it's not hurting the precious feelings of men in dresses who want to invade the women's rights movement, it doesn't matter - even to Mumsnet.

I have a friend who is FTM trans. I call him "he", in my head he is just a guy - I can't imagine back to the time we knew him as "she". I'm not anti-trans in the slightest. The big difference is that my friend has never once attempted to demand special treatment or tried to demean other people. He was the LGBT officer at our uni for a while and promoted inclusivity, acceptance and tolerance for all. He would never even consider trying to force gay men to have sex with him and referring to a "cotton ceiling" or whatever the male equivalent would be if they didn't. Calling him "him" just comes naturally.

This Ada chap is a misogynist and I have no qualms whatsoever about saying that HE is dangerous, homophobic and male.

There are decent trans people quietly getting on with their lives, but I don't hear them talking out against extremist trans people. Like 'you ain't no muslim, bruv', they could come out and declare 'you ain't no woman, bruv' or similar? It just feels like the only people fighting against extremist trans people are women, not the people they purport to represent.

Sorry if that sounds unfair. I'm just so tired from the lack of support.

I was wondering if you could all clear something up for me. First of all apologies if this has already been covered I've only managed to read the first 5 pages (kids and summer holidays are not conducive to reading!) and also this is in no way an attempt to be goady, it's purely from a place of wanting to learn and understand.

Someone mentioned gender appropriation, I understand this in relation to this specific case. This person appears to be abusing what it means to be a woman, lesbian and trans to suit their vile views. However does this view of appropriation refer to the whole trans community?
I guess I've been highly influenced by media and cases like jenners where I've felt like if they identify as a woman that's what they are regardless of their physical sex. I've never considered appropriation but it has made me think reading about it here.
Obviously I believe the trans community deserve respect and shouldn't be discriminated against and I'm very much a live and let live person but I've never considered what impact this could have on women and what we have been fighting for with regards to rights and equality.

In case you hadn't realised from my garbled post I'm very confused! I really hope someone can help me understand this better.

Poster here who mainly reads style and beauty and telly addicts - posting my strong agreement with you.

HE'S A MAN!
A BLOKE!
A GUY!
MALE!

ADA WELLS IS A MAN!

Ffs 🙄

To state anything different is RIDICULOUS!!

we are just trying to ensure that women do not lose the rights which protect us when we are vulnerable, and that we are allowed to exist in our own right, not as some inferior male-defined group of not-men.
This.

And I also agree with a poster pages ago who talked about the narcissism of insisting that everyone use your chosen pronoun.

Also intrigued to see if this will be zapped.

Adam Wells is a woman hater. I couldn't care less how they identify. Their position is misogynist.

the thread last night was deleted because Ada Wells was 'misgendered'*.

Which is rubbish - Ada Wells is a man.

Most posters on the thread however chose to use Ada Wells' preferred pronoun of 'they'. The pronoun obsessed then started a bunfight.

Completely derailing the thread.

Obviously everything related to women pales into insignificance compared to discussion of the correct pronoun to use when discussing a man.

Special was banned for say that Ada is a very nasty man.

Ada Wells is a very nasty man.

*a crime beyond compare apparently.

panama - there are transwomen who speak out - Miranda Yardley for instance, or the blogger Snowflake Especial. But the abuse and threats of violence they get as a result are horrific. I don't blame trans people quietly getting on with their lives for keeping their heads below the parapet.

It's understandable how confused you are, Pinot. What you have to realise is that virtually everyone posting on this thread was in the same position as you a short time ago. We're not extremist radical feminists, in the main (not that there's anything wrong with that). Most of us are just normal women concerned about the erosion of women's rights and boundaries and the silencing of our voices. We've all had our "peak trans" moment. Because it's all one way, there's no give or take here. And many prominent transactivists hate women. They will never be satisfied, because they just want to put women down. Yes they are a fringe, but it's very clear that they are being listened to.

Another person thinking this is absolute bullshit. What's going on MNHQ?

With you all the way.

The poster banned was SpecialAgentFreyPie

There is now a post on the GC subreddit linked upthread