Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

I'm with Bostin. I try to keep up with the debate, but messages get lost in fighting, arguing and deliberate sabotage of threads.

Adding my support.

I usually post on the frothy and less serious parts of Mumsnet but this issue is shocking, everything Basil said is right.

I watched Magdalen Berns' vlog upthread, the way she's been vilified is fucking appalling.

posting in support

In fact, if I do get a deletion email I insist you address me as a sparkling golden unicorn (preferred pronoun "your highness) otherwise I'm orf.

Ada Wells is a man, and a mysoginist man at that

^With fucking big bells on that statement^

Adding my support too. Nothing else to add, its been said so well by so many people on this thread.

Another voice in support of the OP.

This is depressing and dangerous and wrong. And it needs to be discussed freely.

Why does this stuff not make the news?

Because the media is scared of the backlash of appearing 'transphobic' and so any and all discussion gets neatly shelved or lost amidst obfuscating crap about pronouns, and hence women who have legitimate fears about the erosion of their place in society are silenced, again.

The only Ada Wells I know of was a woman and fought for the rights of women. How dare this disgusting man use her name for his misogynistic, homophobic, racist agenda.

BeyondLoves -maybe we should all be reporting this thread, so MNHQ can see how we feel. They need to decide. If they think its OK for Ada to call women cuntscum for the audacity of having been born female, but wrong for anyone to call Ada he because that's clearly so much more fucking offensive.

FFS

Manatee is right - it's really important that the discussion can be widely aired on here as well as in the smaller groups, because every time it's discussed it reaches new women who weren't aware of the extent to which our rights and forms of protection are being eroded.

This is the way policy-makers get rid of rights - by stealth, not by a big announcement that would make big news and be protested against - look at diminishing access to Child Benefit as an example, as well as plans to drop adherence to the Human Rights Act which are being sneaked in alongside Brexit.Some of the employment protection related to women who are pregnant or on maternity leave is linked to sex discrimination laws- once the government enact laws which recognise self-proclaimed gender ahead of biological sex, how safe are the rights which protect women because of our biology?

Also agree.

Others far more articulate than me have expressed my feelings perfectly.

I used the analogy with religion on another thread.

If someone I know decides they believe in god, or transubstantiation, or transmigration of souls, or whatever, I will respect their beliefs. I would even be genuinely happy for them if that belief set brought them comfort, a sense of purpose, a sense of fulfillment. I would stand with them in solidarity if for instance society tried to discriminate against them in employment or housing or civil rights (cf my posts on the thread on the burkini - if I was in the south of France I'd be going to the beach in long sleeves, trousers and a scarf to show solidarity).

However, if that someone tried to proselytize me, or worse, threatened me with exclusion and shunning (effectively the technique that Ada has been using against political opponents, I would withdraw my respect and support. Because they didn't deserve it.

So here goes (awaits deletion)
Ada Wells - calls women cuntscum, tries to coerce lesbians into sex: Ada is a man, not a woman.

Davina Ayrton - convicted of raping a young teenager and possession of thousands of images of the sexual abuse of children: Davina is a man, not a woman.

Claire Darbyshire - convicted of murder and of sexual offences (specifically that uniquely female crime of breaking into your best mate's house and wanking into their underwear): Claire is a man, not a woman.

And I refuse to be silenced by analogies to racism, Islamophobia, etc, because I, incontrovertibly and biologically, am a woman. I (and other women) get to say who gains membership of our oppressed group (and we are oppressed - both world wide and in smaller ways here). Misogynistic, homophobic, violent, sexually abusive men do not get to define who counts as a woman.

Re employment protection. If 'gender' discrimination replaces 'sex', who would you hire - a pregnant woman (who ticks your 'woman' box but will be off soon and potentially more in the future), or a transwoman (who ticks your woman box and your trans box, and will not be having a baby any time soon)...

I also agree there must be space to discuss this on MN.

Delete rule-breaking posts but leave the thread.

I'm hugely disappointed that MNHQ have pandered to this man. I'm surprised too, I thought they valued their members' opinions more than to silence them.

And therein lies the problem with the current rules - my post breaks the guidelines by deliberately misgendering named individuals (yay, my online spell checker doesn't recognise misgendering!) but I am doing so in order to make a political point.

75-80% of Trans people keep their penises, with vulvas it is over 95%. So what is called bottom surgery is not the norm.

Posting in support

To be fair, calling a boy or a man a girl has been an insult for a long time now. Run like a girl, throw like a girl, cry like a girl.

Not sure it was called malicious misgendering then though.

But now we've switched! It's now less of an insult to say a man is a woman than to say a man who clearly hates women is a man.

I know we're mentioning 1984, but the main thing that springs to mind thinking about this is "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."

This thread really shouldn't be deleted but it will be .

Yes, Matilda. Yes, yes, yes.

The day gender discrimination replaces sex discrimination will be a very sadand scary day for women.

So depressing - I sense a sea-change in opinion/policy at MNHQ - at one time they seemed prepared to allow a respectful, even perhaps sympathetic hearing for those of us increasingly concerned about these issues.

Now I feel as if they've moved away from that position into disapproval and merely tolerate our views - so long as we express them carefully in newspeak and keep up the pretence that biology no longer exists or matters, as we are now required to pretend. I feel as if they think WE're the ones being unreasonable.

As an aside, I've seen 'her penis' written here and elsewhere so many times now it's beginning to look almost normal, whereas once anyone who understood biology or even just 'life' would have boggled and gone 'wait a minute....!?'

Things are changing, and as usual, it's women who are getting slowly and inexorably pushed under.

This whole thread is going to be deleted, I'd almost stake my life on it.