Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

By normal women, I meant not political activists.

Another voice chiming into say that the deletion is bollocks, not ladybollocks, just bollocks.

A website that has helped so many women realise that they are being abused and gaslighted is now doing wholesale gaslighting and saying we must call men women if those men so desire.

What has made you so afraid Mumsnet? Are you about to be sued, that some transactivist will claim the website they chose to read made them suicidal, that you will be SWATTED and hacked again? Or are we just being told to be polite and play nicely because it's just easier for women to roll over and give in again. It's a disproportionate response. Posters being banned for misgendering is just crazy and is anti-women.

Adding my support too.

Pinot

The underlying problem is a confusion between sex (reproductive capability) and gender (amorphous term associated with personal identification and socialisation of people to conform to certain norms).

Gender has been based for most of human history on a person's sex and more recently also on whatever they announce is going on inside their head. There are very good arguments to say that gender norms underpin the lack of equal rights women have historically had and continue to struggle with. Try reading this.

There is also another major problem with the attempt to erase sex as a component of the definition of "woman". Many of the problems women as a group (vs people) experience today in the world relate to reproductive rights, and to violence from physically stronger males toward physically weaker females. These things are underpinned by sex, not by gender, therefore to remove sex from the definition of woman effectively makes these issues invisible. And it's very hard to fix a problem you can't see.

I think I'm quite well read and liberal-lefty etc but I just basically don't understand how you can be "a lesbian with a dick" a lesbian with a dick who also thinks lesbians should have sex with someone with a penis. Surely that is the very definition of a heterosexual man? It's just a heterosexual man who likes to wear dresses? What years ago was called a cross dresser? If he likes to have sex with women and has a penis he is a heterosexual man, no? How on earth can it be discrimination to refer to him as anything other than a (apparently deeply unpleasant, judging by his behaviour) man who wears dresses? Truly truly baffled.

If I turn a t-shirt inside out does it become a pair of jeans or an inside out t-shirt? Exactly through same logic applies to penises. There's no such thing as a man with a vagina. Inside out penises don't act like a vagina and rarely look like a vagina. 'Can it be fucked?' is not how we decide who's a woman

well someone at HQ must be at their desk by now . . . . . . . . . .

pinot there are some really good threads about that over in FWR or if you ask that specific question you will get loads of answers. Not to say you can't ask here but it might get missed.

((personally I believe a person who has never dealt with oppression as a woman can not come over and say that things like long hair, make up and handbags are female^ while simultaneously decrying that labour, pregnancy and vaginas are not. It's not just appropriating it's offensive. I can't reel off some stereotypes about BME culture and say that I like those things and therefore must be really black but skin colour has nothing to do with actual being a BME person and the way they are treated in society ))

The poster banned was SpecialAgentFreyPie

You're kidding me? MNHQ are you fucking kidding me? You have banned a long standing member for misgendering that dickwad called Ada J Wells? Who incidentally, has now been leaned on to stand down.

With you all the way, Special Hope you can come back.

300 posts Mumsnet, MANY individual posters. What have you got to say about it? We don't agree with this. Are you going to pull this thread too? Because everyone believes that 'Ada' is a man?

Fair enough matilda.

Postiing in support

It's like the Emperor's New Clothes.....everyone can see the truth but no one is brave enough to say it.

Come on MNHQ: be brave enough to stand up and be a much-needed media voice saying "but you've got no clothes on"

As a person who wasn't aware of these issues before yesterday and as a mother of 3 daughters I feel this is too important to ignore. This has my full support.

Completely agree OP. Posting to add my support.

If a person truly believed in gender neutrality then they would believe in free choice. So they wouldn't want a woman to have to accept a penis. That's what is the crux of the problem. When someone claims to be pro-choice when it comes to gender then saying people should not have a choice when it comes to sexuality then they are doubletalking.

If someone is doubletalking then they are doing it for reasons of control.

I'm a humanist. I believe someone should be able to change their gender position whenever they want, or stay the same throughout their lives. And I also believe everyone has the right to chose who they have sex with as adults. No one should be telling anyone they must accept penis/vagina if they don't want it. Because that is against their right to choose sexuality.

If someone disagrees and thinks they should be able to dictate another's sexuality (or gender) then they are being controlling .

They are also pigeon holing people into categories which goes against the whole neutrality debate. That's the other problem - to on the one hand insist on a neutral pronoun (their choice and right as far as I'm concerned) bit then insist that others should be categorised as cis/cuntscum - that is again doubletalk and reveals that in reality that person does not want neutrality and freedom for all. They want freedom for themselves, but everyone else needs to be categorised and controlled.

Posting in support

I'm someone else posting in support - these concerns deserve discussion and they deserve respect. I'm mostly inordinately grateful to the many amazing MN posters who have articulated what I'm unable to, and who have educated me, and reassured me that I'm not an insane bigot. I tend to lurk not post on the Feminism board - the people who do post so well should know that there are probably lots of us out there reading and learning.

For them to have banned Special is a disgrace.

MNHQ, despite your "this is my child" campaign, you consistently allow disablist remarks and threads to stand.

Someone points out that a man in a dress is a man in a dress and you ban them?

Where's the logic?

It's impossible to name a problem without the language to do so. If I believe that a lot of the reason that (some!) trans women want to erode women's rights is because they are either getting off sexually on invading women's boundaries (autogynophile fetishists) or they don't understand what is truly important to women because they were socialised as men and still have male privilege, I need the language to be able to do so. I don't believe either of these things apply to all trans women but I believe they do some (the former not as many as the latter). To explain that women are systematically discriminated against because of their biological sex I need to make a distinction between women and men. It's clear to everyone that isn't a total idiot that women and trans women are not biologically the same. Biology is important.

"Who, incidentally, has now been leaned on to stand down."

But only following hate speech directed towards the police. The other stuff, hatred towards women, ideas of expelling lesbians who refused to be raped, was left to stand, seemingly.

The problem I saw with the deleted thread was Ego was being hounded and accused of reporting posts.

FUCKING HELL - Special got banned for that. Special - if you are still reading I thought you were very brave to post so much of your personal experiences, to show people how damaging Ada is for young lesbians.
and truly dissgusted

If anyone reading wants to report my thread about 300 posts and ask MNHQ to respond

that would be good. I want to see what MNHQ have to say.

Another voice in support of the OP. Sick of this lunacy and colluding in these men's delusions. How do I pm Nicki for the FB group?