Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

Support.

I am somewhat out of touch and am related to someone who underwent a sex change.

Can I ask, just to get my head around it, that there is no problem with people who have undergone a full transition identifying as women?

I feel like these issues have crept up on me and I am just trying to understand it all. I am against the erosion of women's safe spaces.

Why does this stuff not make the news? If I try to have a conversation about it in rl I find most people dont know about all this. They don't know that male bodied athletes are infiltrating women's sports, thus nudging out women. They don't know about the trans gendered NUS Women's Officer whose manifesto was all about trans issues rather than women's issues. They heard about the trans gendered person who was sent to a male prison (can't remember their name, sorry) but they were only aware of the fact that they 'looked' female. They didn't know that this person was still using their penis for penetrative sex and that we're supposed to accept that penises like this are 'female'. They don't know about the way lesbians are bullied for not wanting sex with male bodied 'lesbians'. They don't know about the way crime figures are being skewed with male bodied criminals being recorded as women or how some of the women who have earned their place in the boardroom and are rivalling their male colleagues are, in fact, male.

They certainly don't know about this person (I refuse to use the chosen name because I'm so fucking angry about the way the real woman has been erased) and vile way they've been treating women.

I have reached peak trans and beyond. Say what the fuck you like about women, even threaten to rape and kill them, it's all about free speech. But dare to refer to a person who looks like a man, sounds like a man, uses a penis like a man, as 'he' and you'll be silenced.

It's not right mn. Not at all.

It's a difficult one Bostin. I don't think anyone has a problem making spaces and being kind for/ to those who clearly do have problems. As women know all too well what it is to have a problem with society's gender roles and not want to play. But the erosion of safe women's spaces and the reversal of language cannot go on.

Adding my support. Nothing to add that hasn't been said

Bostin, I can obviously only speak for myself, but I have no problem with full-transitioned men identifying as women.

I have a massive problem with MEN who have intact male genitalia and were born with XY chromosomes unilaterally declaring that they are a woman.

Support. I also think it pretty poor MNHQ haven't actually replied to this thread.

Do MNHQ know it's here? It's a big site. Plus they'd have to have thinking time.

Posting in support

Another cry of "bullshit" from me too

Another posting in support.

This is a HUGE issue for women and girls, and it's vital to be able to discuss it without being shouted down or labelled a TERF bigot.

Bostin, the more I think about it, the more I don't really understand what "identifying as" anything really means.

Hormones, surgery, the whole shebang...it doesn't change the sex you were born.

I'd feel more comfortable with a your friend saying they 'identify as feminine' (assuming we're talking about a MtT).

Honestly, one of the writers on 'Everyday feminism' identifies as fat. Well, so do anorexics.

It feels difficult. Having seen it happen my experience is that the person concerned went very much out of the way to fit in, disappear and assimilate as a woman. Drawing attention was the last priority.
All this anti woman anti lesbian rhetoric from people such as Ada seems to make the position of people like my relative more precarious too.

Adding my support. This is supposed to be a space for WOMEN to talk about things we want to talk about. We do not need the approval of men, or ex-men, or let's-pretend-they-aren't-men, to do that. And we don't need other women pandering to this ridiculous agenda, we need to stick together. Because this whole stupid debate shows just how far we still need to go to get the equality we are supposed to be able to take for granted as human beings.

Adding my support. amanaplan puts it perfectly.

Absolute support. Come on HQ.

This Ada Wells was a woman. She's the only female Ada Wells I know of. Probably turning in her grave.

Another message in support of the OP.

Basil's post says it perfectly.

Come on MN, it's getting ridiculous when a debate about a woman-hating person like that is deleted because of one poster turning their hog out about pronouns (again).

I've said it before and I'll say it again- I'm using MN far less because I'm sick to the back teeth of reading about the trans debate and seeing any and all dissent against mute, unquestioning acceptance of biological men as females shut down and deleted. It's absolutely disgraceful.

I agree it probably doesn't change what you were born as. But my relative has lived quietly as a woman (op and all) since the 1980s. But that is not the same thing as having a fully functioning penis and wanting to be a woman at the expense of women.
Anyway feel like my eyes are being opened by these issues. I don't want to derail just trying to understand.

Perhaps if we smashed the idea of gender then your friend would have been free to just 'be' without becoming a lifelong medical patient.

At the moment, I'm inclined to think it's fair enough that MN haven't commented on a thread started at 23.15 before 9 in the morning.

But if this gets pulled, it's going to feel a bit last-strawish.

Complete support from me too. I was very upset after an IRL discussion where I put across quite mild gender critical views went badly against me. We need to be able to discuss this and part of that discussion is about of people count as a man or woman. We need to be able to do this without being deleted for misgendering.

And I'm sorry, but Ada Wells is a man, and a mysoginist man at that. I know this will be deleted, but it's the damn truth.

Support.

Bungo, I think it is very, very likely that one of the various handmaidens on mn has reported this thread already.