Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm referring to the deleted thread from Chat today. It was started to discuss issues arising from some of the statements made by Edinburgh University's ex-LGBT rep, which were anti-semitic, misogynistic and lesbophobic (amongst other things.

This rep identifies as trans. Various posters (both trans and not) were either ignorant of their preferred pronouns, or didn't use them consistently. I can believe some people also deliberately misgendered them; I didn't see. The debate, so far as I understand it, ended with the claim that we should not use 'they' in statements of the form 'This group, they are like this' or 'This group, they do that'.

This may be a valid debate. I don't know. But it seemed to me it was a complete derail of the original debate, and one that replicates the exact type of erasure that LGBT students at Edinburgh were experiencing when they were being made to feel unwelcome.

MNHQ's deletion message included this: We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread.

HQ, could you please let us know why you think everything has to be dominated by discussions like this? Can't there be some way of restricting them, so they don't take over every attempt to discuss misogyny or lesbianism or bisexuality?

There were posters on that thread sharing very personal experiences, and to delete the thread with the claim that we've discussed pronouns in the wrong way seems insulting.

[JudyCoolibar]

Can someone, anyone, explain to me how the use of 'they' was othering when that's precisely the term Ada themself requested?

It wasn't in relation to Ada, but in relation to lumping trans people together as a whole generic "they" and generalising massively and inaccurately about them. We would object to people saying all gay people, or all women, or all people of a particular race behave or think in one way only, and it was reasonably pointed out that that is equally wrong in relation to trans people. Frankly, there seemed to be quite a bit of deliberate misunderstanding of that entirely valid point, since people were still going on about it even after it had been clarified.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

There were quite a few posts which said "they think (eg) all women are cuntscum" where it wasn't clear whether the poster was talking about a group or Ada. That's the trouble with taking an existing word and changing its meaning, I guess...

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

That's not to say all "they" usage referred to Ada, but some was not clear

[JudyCoolibar]

There was misgendering, and it was more than pronouns - I remember Special specifically saying something to the effect that Ada was a horrible man; she was warned about it but continued. I agree it is a shame that her other posts were lost when the thread went, and I completely agree that her and others' anger about Ada was fully justified. But it is worth keeping the facts in sight.

[MorrisZapp]

I also gave good examples of why the word they absolutely isn't the problem, and others agreed with me.

Would you refer to black people as they?

Yes I would.

Black people are proud of their history, the freedoms they fought for are rooted in the civil rights movement.

Would I call women them?

Yes I would.

Women have every right to safe spaces, it's wrong to tell them otherwise.

It's not the word, it's the rest of the sentence that you're objecting too.

I would call any minority group them and they, as would everybody else or else the English language has to be reimagined from the ground up.

[LineyReborn]

I think the meaning of 'transphobic' is changing, if it is used to describe people who challenge misogyny and challenge hatred of gay women / lesbians.

[HermioneWeasley]

"I remember Special specifically saying something to the effect that Ada was a horrible man; she was warned about it but continued. I agree it is a shame that her other posts were lost when the thread went, and I completely agree that her and others' anger about Ada was fully justified. But it is worth keeping the facts in sight."

And the fact is that Ada is a man. And most people would agree he's pretty horrible.

I can't believe people are deleted and banned for stating facts, even if they are hurtful.

[DropYourSword]

Thank you Judy. I didn't see the end of the thread, so obviously can't knowledgeably comment, but is it possible that when people were saying 'they' they meant it as a singular relating to Ada, rather than they as a whole group of people?

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

Stereotyping is othering. Tarring everyone with the actions of a few.
Using they in a negative sentence, that is factual, eg
"UKIP (minority group) voters say they do not like the wrong sort of immigration, they wrongly think the country is too full."

If we can't do that, please explain to me how we can talk about groups that do not include ourselves?

I "get" othering, but I do think it's gonna need its own whole thread if any negative use of they is being called it.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

As I said (also deleted now...) I do not think anyone was using "transactivists" to mean people who campaign against stuff who are trans. They specifically meant - as my quick google search only saw anyone meaning - those who want "TERF scum to die in a fire"

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

What would happen if 100% of ukip candidates said it? Then "most" would be incorrect.

[Mrsmorton]

Ego, FFS. Instead of feeling persecuted, why not do something positive and show us where the non violent, misogynistic TRAs are so we can support them. And maybe start your own thread that isn't all about you but is all about women

[Mrsmorton]

*non misogynistic

[OfCrayonBorn]

the fact is that Ada is a man. And most people would agree he's pretty horrible.

Yes!!!! It's really come to something when the above statement is controversial when talking about a male person who calls women cuntscum.

[DropYourSword]

I am sure most people would think it's not right to apply such awful stereotypes to a group of people

I would agree with that. But from what I saw of the thread there was a definite separation between transwomen and transactivists. I think any plural 'they' were surely directed at transactivists who seem to have harmful views towards lesbians and not all transwomen.