Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm referring to the deleted thread from Chat today. It was started to discuss issues arising from some of the statements made by Edinburgh University's ex-LGBT rep, which were anti-semitic, misogynistic and lesbophobic (amongst other things.

This rep identifies as trans. Various posters (both trans and not) were either ignorant of their preferred pronouns, or didn't use them consistently. I can believe some people also deliberately misgendered them; I didn't see. The debate, so far as I understand it, ended with the claim that we should not use 'they' in statements of the form 'This group, they are like this' or 'This group, they do that'.

This may be a valid debate. I don't know. But it seemed to me it was a complete derail of the original debate, and one that replicates the exact type of erasure that LGBT students at Edinburgh were experiencing when they were being made to feel unwelcome.

MNHQ's deletion message included this: We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread.

HQ, could you please let us know why you think everything has to be dominated by discussions like this? Can't there be some way of restricting them, so they don't take over every attempt to discuss misogyny or lesbianism or bisexuality?

There were posters on that thread sharing very personal experiences, and to delete the thread with the claim that we've discussed pronouns in the wrong way seems insulting.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

Marking place, need some z's...

[Fantasma]

No one was talking about Edinburgh

Well, actually I was - just nobody was replying!

Basically Ada is a bit odd and too political and unfortunately was able to rise high enough in BLOGS to have enough backing to take a position as part of EUSA.

It seems unfair that Ada's brand of hate speech was seen as ok when other things were shut down due to 'safe space' rules, but it was all on personal social media rather than university turf so maybe people engaged actively with Ada rather than complaining to the university.

[Fantasma]

EUSA have had quite a lot of problems this year too - there was a lot of trouble earlier in the year with space and bookings for clubs and societies and then later on there were issues with the Justice for Palestine group, so Ada probably wasn't near the top of their priority list! And they're known on campus as EUSAless

[OlennasWimple]

mjingaxx directly accuse Ego of reporting Special, and when Ego refused to say whether she had or not (correctly, IMO), demanded other pp to basically "own up" to reporting. It was out of order

[Fantasma]

Sorry, just realised that after getting annoyed at the last thread being derailed I'm not talking about the title of this one...

Are there any threads that have managed to stay specifically about the situation?

[JudyCoolibar]

It's extraordinary that people are so hotly denying the attacks directed against Ego on that thread. As Olenna said, the OP was "blaming" her for the fact that Special got banned and demanding repeatedly that she own up to reporting. We're not imagining it, and accusing Ego of lying is simply continuing the abuse.

[RufusTheReindeer]

Mumsnet

Why was special banned?

I have been out all day and didnt see the rest of the thread

[DropYourSword]

Can someone, anyone, explain to me how the use of 'they' was othering when that's precisely the term Ada themself requested?

[BertrandRussell]

I found this letter from the University of Chicago to its new intake very interesting.....

[Comejointhemurder]

I agree with Judy and Olenna. I was on the thread till the original deletion where the OP was bullying Ego and when I pointed that out I very much doubt special was deleted on the basis of one report by one poster; she essential said 'ok, if it wasn't her, who was it? demanding people come forward and say if they had and justify it. I'm pretty sure the thread was deleted at that point because it had descended into bullying.

I didn't see the thread after that so don't know what happened then.

And then other posters brought over the 'thread derailed by ONE poster, deleted because of ONE persons feelings' vibe on to the feminism thread and then to here.

Everyone knows who you're talking about it so that poster tries to defend themselves and gets told 'oh you're derailing again, it's not always about you!' when it's those posters who are in fact making it all about her.

There are important things to discuss. They can be discussed without accusing each other of anything.

[JacquettaWoodville]

"I'm getting pretty fed up of entire threads debating important women's issues being deleted wholesale because of individual posts which contravene talk guidelines. "

I agree with this.

I disagree with the approach minjaxx took in asking who had reported, but would've preferred the thread to be relocked rather than deleted.

[MoreCoffeeNow]

MNHQ, this is one of the few sites that allows this type of discussion and I have admired your stance in doing so. Please don't follow the herd and stifle women's voices.

Women are being "othered" and it's time it stopped.

If we keep to the guidelines and use preferred pronouns (even if we think they are incorrect) please let these threads stand so debate can continue.

Trans rights are not more important then women's rights. Yet women's voices are being silenced.

[BertrandRussell]

Deleting the whole thread was a completely baffling decision. What does MNHQ think will happen if such threads stand? Is it paranoid of me to think that it's to do with advertisers or something?

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Bertrand that letter is interesting - hopefully more universities will move towards that type of ethos.

The point about intellectual safe spaces was for me particularly pertinent - I think we all tend to have a habit of tending towards those who agree with our views and retreating from opposing views if we find them uncomfortable. In a university particularly the whole point is to learn how to think and if you are in an intellectual safe space bubble that is pretty hard to do.

[HermioneWeasley]

Can we get back to discussing why raging misogyny, homophobia and anti semitism was allowed to stand? What is it about announcing you're trans that becomes an excuse for behaviour we wouldn't tolerate from anyone else?

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

I disagree with asking who reported - mainly because it's pointless! That said, it came from a lot of anger in special being banned. She had poured her heart out re lgbt at uni when she was younger and to ban on the basis of her angrily refusing to call a misogynist arsehole by the pronouns preferred, because of her experience is disgusting.

It may well be the talk guidelines, but you have silenced someone who was upset, and I can tell you how the thread deletion is gonna look to Ada's henchmen, should they google it.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

Sorry, hench-they. I don't know how Ada's supporters identify.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Can we get back to discussing why raging misogyny, homophobia and anti semitism was allowed to stand?

I can only guess it is because on the one hand it was seen as a young firebrand student using their freedom of expression, and on the other hand wanting to protect the university.

It is telling that they have not published the results of the inquiry into the use if "zio" - they say it is for fear of legal action, but I can't see that being a problem given that I'm sure the findings would be presented in a neutral manner.

The cynic in me wonders if they ever actually did investigate it...

[IzzyIsBusy]

Just adding my support LRD

I try to avoid trans threads simply because when you speak truth and fact you are deleted and called trasphobic

Yet reducing womens rights and labelling them cuntscum is totally fine

[CaptainBrickbeard]

I am really disappointed in the deletion message. MNHQ seems to have missed the point. Pronouns were not the important part of that thread. I feel very cynical about their decision to pull the whole thread and I think it was a bad move that really lets down the users of this site.

[OfCrayonBorn]

I'm with the women here.

MNHQ, I know you must get threats and abuse for hosting these discussions. Please rise above it, stand with women. If it's that bad, report it to the police, surely?

How can you bear this? Silencing women because the particular person being a misogynist asks the world to refer to them as something other than a man? It's horrifying to watch places like this falling into line with the woman-hating demands of TRAs.

[CoteDAzur]

Adding my support to the OP.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

I wonder why mn didn't lock the thread?

If it's a valid discussion but with some delete-able posts, which then gets derailed, why not delete the misgendering (or better, edit it so the rest of a valid post isn't lost - but I won't hold my breath for that to happen), delete the derailing, and lock the thread.

As I've said two deleted threads led to me having a very negative image of mn yesterday.
First was a (thought to be troll-y by quite a few people) male poster who said he wanted to leave his wife and sn child, talked about coercing her into sex and having no money of his own. Yet this rapist cocklodger managed to get his own thread deleted after asking mnhq "because of privacy concerns". Of course after I (and others) were called a long list of names because he then said he was suicidal. Bullshit deletion message number one.

Then this. Bullshit deletion message number two.

Both pandering to narcissistic males and their handmaidens.

[HermioneWeasley]

I know MN isn't just for mums - I rarely discussing parenting or motherhood on here and can see why anyone who enjoys a good discussion would want to be part of it.

But the majority of members are women, and I suspect a significant majority of them are mothers and have been pregnant, given birth and breastfed.

So to say the feelings of men who "identify" as women trump actual women who have extremely visceral experience of what their biology means is just ridiculous. I can't get my head round why from a commercial point of view you would alienate the majority of your membership?