Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm referring to the deleted thread from Chat today. It was started to discuss issues arising from some of the statements made by Edinburgh University's ex-LGBT rep, which were anti-semitic, misogynistic and lesbophobic (amongst other things.

This rep identifies as trans. Various posters (both trans and not) were either ignorant of their preferred pronouns, or didn't use them consistently. I can believe some people also deliberately misgendered them; I didn't see. The debate, so far as I understand it, ended with the claim that we should not use 'they' in statements of the form 'This group, they are like this' or 'This group, they do that'.

This may be a valid debate. I don't know. But it seemed to me it was a complete derail of the original debate, and one that replicates the exact type of erasure that LGBT students at Edinburgh were experiencing when they were being made to feel unwelcome.

MNHQ's deletion message included this: We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread.

HQ, could you please let us know why you think everything has to be dominated by discussions like this? Can't there be some way of restricting them, so they don't take over every attempt to discuss misogyny or lesbianism or bisexuality?

There were posters on that thread sharing very personal experiences, and to delete the thread with the claim that we've discussed pronouns in the wrong way seems insulting.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

This is the problem with thread deletions, they get rehashed, and history gets rewritten...

Brandnewiggi I think we are allowed to discuss that person's actions as long as we use their chosen pronouns, and as we do not suggest that their views are shared by other transactivists.

*MNHQ I am using "their" as to the best of my knowledge it is their preferred pronoun, not because I am trying to "other"

[Xenophile]

Ego, you are at best being disingenuous, at worst outright lying.

You have a long standing grievance against LRD and you probably need to get past that now. Carrying it into every single discussion you have with her is dull and looks like, as you termed it the Egoshow.

The derail over pronouns was bloody ridiculous and quite deliberate, given that the person being discussed on the thread who has got lesbians banned from an LGBT society and made innumerable threats to women and Jewish people actually chooses to be known as "they".

I thought we were supposed to pander to whatever pronouns someone decided they wished to be called by? Surely not calling Ada they is misgendering and, as such, should have been deleted.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

Fwiw ego, I do think that for the majority of the thread you were reasonable and the accusations weren't really on. But the discussion at the end re othering was - while valid - a massive derail.

[ThatStewie]

Yes. We absolutely must not link that individuals anisive behaviour with these people because apparently recognising patterns of behaviour is now verboten,

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

Accusations that it was you that reported special and got her banned, that is

[Batteriesallgone]

Oh shit I missed the thread. And now it's gone

[sentia]

Since misgendering someone deliberately is against talk guidelines (which I agree with) then why can't the offending post be removed, as is usually the case when a post breaks guidelines? These are incredibly important things to be debating without undue censorship. Taking the whole thread down is silencing a valid conversation.

As an aside, the tab article linked to on the original thread said that Ada wishes to be gendered as "they".

[Xenophile]

Needless to say I stand with LRD and the lesbians Ada has tried to harm during their tenure as an officer of EUSA.

MNHQ "they/their" pronouns are Ada's choice. Not othering, not misgendering, in fact, calling them she is misgendering them according to their demands.

HTH

[LumpyMcBentface]

I think the whole thing has gone bananas. People are so scared of being transphobic that proper headcases like the subject of the thread are being given airtime.

And women, actual born women, are being deleted and silenced and told to shut up and worship the penis give up their rights in favour of transwomen.

And why is it always the transwomen that spout this shit (disclaimer obvs not all transwomen). Why don't we hear this kind of hate speech from transmen? Oh, that's right, because this is, as usual, about men and their rights.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

YY, sentia. I also agree that misgendering should be against guidelines. Just in case that is in any doubt.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

I think it should work like personal attacks. Against a poster (including a sleb one like JM) not on. Against a sleb/person in the news in general - not nice, but as in "please don't" not "we will delete and ban"

[BitchPeas]

Ego

It is not about you all the time. Yet you have to make it about you, your thoughts, your feelings and your opinions alllllllllll the time.

You are incapable of discussing these issues. It's tedious and frustrating.

[Xenophile]

Just out of interest, can I ask why mjingaxx has been banned?

Was it just because she started a thread that has been deleted?

[UnderTheGreenwoodTree]

This is the second thread that I have seen of this ilk in as many weeks.

This debate has raged for years, with lengthy discussion threads on here, a predominantly female site (am I still allowed to say that?)

MNHQ, please, please don't shut this debate down. This is one of the sites where people are allowed to have such discussions freely.

Something has changed since this time last year - I know, because I was following a massive thread on here when I went on hols last August. I know deliberate mis-gendering has always been deleted, and that's fine - but you deleted a whole thread - and the OP was not about pronouns - it was about Edinburgh LGBT. It is so, so important that we are allowed to discuss this.

[AyeAmarok]

Ego, this thread is starting to get derailed too.

[SenecaFalls]

I also don't see why the thread had to be deleted. The misgendering had stopped.

In fairness to Ego, she was among the earliest posters on the thread to condemn the comments of Ada Wells. I went back and reread the beginning before it was deleted. And her points about "they" were to address her sense that it was unfair to blame transactivists and trans people as a group. And there were some sweeping statements to that effect early in the thread. You may disagree with Ego's assertions about the views of transactivists as a group, but her statement of those views is not a derailing of the thread, in my opinion.

[Snowshimmer]

What, was the OP of the deleted thread banned as well?!

[NotAnotherHarlot]

I'm getting pretty fed up of entire threads debating important women's issues being deleted wholesale because of individual posts which contravene talk guidelines.

That thread was covering the failure of a University to censure an elected representative of minority groups for attacking individuals with that group.

As Mrs DeVere so eloquently put it, women are being moved from 2nd class to 3rd. Mumsnet appears to be consistently protecting anything which is trans related before women's issues and concerns.

People should have their preferred pronouns respected. That does not mean that lesbian, gay and heterosexual women should be 3rd class citizens to men and transwomen.

This is a site full of women who come from all walks of life. This is the modern community for sharing information to help us learn and grow. To know what is not acceptable, to be reinforced that you should be treated kindly, respected, heard by your partner, parents, employer, children. Without women sharing and communicating vulnerable women will never know that they deserve more. That a lesbian is not an awful person for not wanting to have a sexual relationship with someone who has a male body. That each of us has the right to decide who we share our bodies with, that your dignity is important at home, in medical situations and even if someone else is comfortable it doesn't mean you are wrong.

Mumsnet I appreciate that it is much easier to pull whole threads than delete posts, but please consider the impact of silencing women with valid concerns on issues that are continually being shouted down.

[Xenophile]

Ego, I am not accusing you of anything, I am pointing out your repeated behaviour ptterns. If you don't agree, that's fine, but I will continue to say what I see.

[Effic]

good grief ego! This thread is.not.about you. Please can you let it develop to maybe go back to the point of the original thread which was about freedom of speech, university reponsibility regarding freedom of speech vs hate speech, the changing face of LGBT activism etc. Can this one be allowed to not be about you please?