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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Protesting deletions on the thread about trans sex offender

193 replies

MephistoMarley · 03/08/2016 15:22

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2699708-to-think-this-person-should-be-in-jail?msgid=62706219#62706219

I thoroughly dispute that my posts or many of the op's posts were transphobic. I stated several times that people can't change sex and that trans women are male, these are absolute, verifiable facts. Not matters of opinion. And definitely not phobic or bigoted statements. Something has changed in your moderation policy recently and a lot more is being deleted for perceived transphobia which wouldn't have previously. What is happening here? Are we being shut down? Are facts beyond the pale at mumsnet now?

OP posts:
HermioneWeasley · 07/08/2016 20:03

cote biology is so essentialist and exclusionary

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 07/08/2016 20:23

Cote, that sounds like a fascinating book, I might have a look for it.

I've quoted the utterly disgusting and despicably transphobic Grays Anatomy before, no one clarified that either!! Grin

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 07/08/2016 20:29

Also adding my voice to this. I had no idea we were being deleted for speaking factually now - MNHQ, it is very important that we have a resoonse to this which clearly explains how it is transphobic to say that it is not possible to change one's biological sex, and why you feel it is not appropriate for us to debate the issues surrounding this without fear of being silenced.

CoteDAzur · 07/08/2016 20:31

It's a fascinating subject and a very accessible book, Beyond. I would definitely recommend it. I have studied a bit of Chemistry and Organic Chemistry in my teens (what I guess would pass as GCSE subjects in the UK) but that was a few decades ago. I am now learning all about histones, DNA methylation, etc.

I would be happy to quote more about biological differences males and females of our species, if anyone is still not clear on the subject of sexual dimorphism.

redshoeblueshoe · 09/08/2016 10:40

So no further comment from MNHQ then

Original poster
MephistoMarley · 09/08/2016 11:54

I'm going to report the thread

OP posts:
MNHQ
RebeccaMumsnet · 09/08/2016 16:21

Hi all

We've been through the original thread now and reinstated some deletions. As you know, MNHQ's general position is to try and allow the debate to flow, but in truth it's a complex area and we're all feeling our way a bit.

Thanks for your patience, though and apologies if we were a bit heavy with our deletions.

Original poster
MephistoMarley · 09/08/2016 16:37

Well thank you Rebecca
I see you have left one of my posts deleted in which I said that it's not possible to change sex. I find it difficult to comprehend this but if that's your line then that's your line.

OP posts:
TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 09/08/2016 16:47

But I think if that one has remained deleted it needs explaining.

Biologically, as I understand it, one's sex is determined by one's chromosones. So in order to actually change one's sex, one would have to change one's chromosones. Can I just clarify, Rebecca - is MNHQ therefore saying that this is possible? Because if so, that's a massive scientific leap forward that I've missed.

bloomburger · 09/08/2016 16:48

Can't someone start a transnet?

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 09/08/2016 16:49

I do understand mnhq's reluctance here - but surely they can see a difference between stating it is impossible to change sex on a trans support thread, or even a general thread, and stating it in regards to a sex offender who has gotten away with child abuse.

I hate the way any comment on the matter is being hijacked with 'not all trans' and seen as a comment on trans people in general rather than how it was clearly bloody meant.

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 09/08/2016 17:28

Thank you very much Rebecca

It's better than nothing, right?

Although given the deletions I think the rules regarding what we can say about trans should be clearer

VaginaJones · 09/08/2016 17:45

Trans threads bring out the most horrible and abusive individual's on both sides of the argument.

I wish mumsnet was a lot stricter in enforcing their rules on personal abuse. As threads where people have strong opinions turn quickly into a slanging match full of nasty put downs and insults - ruining any chance of an interesting and informative debate on an issue.

Original poster
MephistoMarley · 09/08/2016 17:54

The thing that annoyed me most about that thread and the deletions is that is was totally pertinent to discuss whether the sex offender was 'psychologically' female or not. The sex offender was spared jail because they had been 'living as a woman' for the most recent 2 of their 60 years and what is more, they were not ordered to complete a perpetrators program because such programs are only for men.
This needs to be an evidence based decision. Either this person was socialised as a man and offended as a man, in which case a perpetrators program for men has a chance of success. Or this person has always been psychologically a woman in which case they offended as a woman, even though their offending followed male patterns of sexual abuse and involved a penis.
When you're saying that people are psychologically women despite living 58 years as a man there are consequences. Here is a consequence- a male sex offender cannot access a perpetrators program designed for men because they 'identify' as a woman.
My deleted (and reinstated) post said this. It was deleted for stating that being 'psychologically female' with a male body is not possible, and stating that this male sex offender is not a woman. It is truly astounding that we are not able to discuss these issues.

OP posts:
HermioneWeasley · 09/08/2016 18:35

Sorry HQ - we are still not clear. Are we going to be deleted and threatened with suspension if we state the entirely accurate facts that you can't change sex and you there's no evidence for being "psychologically female" or female brains?

Will you also delete people who say there's no evidence for God/gods, no evidence for ghosts, woo, homeopathy and other delusional thinking?

SirVixofVixHall · 09/08/2016 22:35

It is astonishing to me how womens voices are silenced on this on Mumsnet, and how popular opinion is allowed to flourish at the expense of facts.

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 09/08/2016 22:44

MNHQ are hardly going to come out say 'we realise we massively pissed off our main demographic, we won't do it again or it could affect our profits' are they?

But I really do think they will be much more careful about the whole 'transphobia' stuff now. Real women are their main demographic, after all.

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 09/08/2016 22:44

But I'm cynical.

redshoeblueshoe · 10/08/2016 06:47

Well HQ that's totally clarified your position Confused

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 10/08/2016 09:21

I wonder if hq could explain how the process works for deletions of something as open to interpretation as this is? Are the hqers who are on shift given any specific guidelines or is it all open to interpretation?

I'm thinking that if there are any guidelines, if we could be made aware of them, we'd have more of a clue what is/is not acceptable?

HermioneWeasley · 10/08/2016 10:13

I've messaged HQ to ask them to clarify their position on this. Silence so far ...,

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 10/08/2016 10:14

MNHQ, if we don't know what the rules are, how can we know whetheer we're posting something that could get us in strife?

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 10/08/2016 10:16

X-Post Hermione
Well that's shit. Am I the only one who thinks MNHQ have no clue how to make guidelines for this? I don't blame them. It's nonsense, as we know.

CalmItKermitt · 10/08/2016 10:28

MephistoMarley I too would love to hear why your comment re:changing sex has remained deleted. It's getting absolutely ridiculous. Apparently MNHQ know best about science 🙄

ladamanera · 10/08/2016 10:37

Just adding my voice.
I have been a lawyer for the trans community before. I have many sympathies with their struggles and I believe everyone regardless of gender has the right to be respected equally. I will fight for those rights.
BUT. "equal" treatmemt and "identical" treatment" are not the same thing. We can ask that transwomen feel safe but we cannot ask society to pretend transwomen are females to make them feel happy- they are not, they are biologically male. I do not accept the "but it hurts my feelings if you dont let me in the changing room" argument as sufficiently persuasive to perpetuate mass delusions that sex can change or to trump female rights. the accomodation of transpeople's rights must be done with due regard to others' rights. transwomen and females do not have the same physionomy, vulnerabilities, issues or concerns, regardless of any particular transwoman's desires to have had them. I believe transwomen are equal to females, but I do not need to pretend they are the same to do this. I do not have to pretend a tall person is short or a gay person is straight in order to treat them equally. Transwomen must have equal rights of access to their own safe spaces but they do not have to be the same safe spaces as female safe spaces. To do that is to confuse the rights of the trans community with their desires. It is also to confuse "trans" complexities with "intersex". Not the same either.