Protesting deletions on the thread about trans sex offender

[MephistoMarley]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2699708-to-think-this-person-should-be-in-jail?msgid=62706219#62706219

I thoroughly dispute that my posts or many of the op's posts were transphobic. I stated several times that people can't change sex and that trans women are male, these are absolute, verifiable facts. Not matters of opinion. And definitely not phobic or bigoted statements. Something has changed in your moderation policy recently and a lot more is being deleted for perceived transphobia which wouldn't have previously. What is happening here? Are we being shut down? Are facts beyond the pale at mumsnet now?

[SirVixofVixHall]

I absolutely agree with your post Iadamanera. I have spoken up for gay rights, and supported equality my whole adult life, and I deeply resent being tagged as a bigot for saying that it is impossible to decide your own sex. I really hate the deletion frenzy on here, in part because the women being silenced are so clearly reasonable, kind and balanced people who support equality, the basic principle of feminism. Deletions just add fuel to the "offensive terf" narrative.

[SpecialAgentFreyPie]

I know this is childish, you don't have to tell me so. But I feel quite betrayed. I rallied for LBGT rights. I did all I could. And now Trans people are turning around and saying 'piss off, I'm a better woman than you, now let me into the changijng room with the children.

People talk a lot about changing rooms, toilets, rape crisis centres etc,. My personal fear is: Is an 11 year old girl a bigot if she doesn't want to take her bathing suit off if there's a pre-op transwoman in there? Do we force little girls to ignore their survival instincts and get naked so the transperson can feel happy? Yes, women's rights are being eroded and that makes the red mist descend. But when I think about girls, my little DD, I just feel immense fear.

[SpecialAgentFreyPie]

Meant to say I think if we tell girls to ignore their instincts and get naked, that's tantamount to abuse. No one will ever convince me it isn't. That would be extremely traumatising. And I'm NOT talking about a predator, just a transwoman with male privilege who doesn't understand/care about the damage.

[CoteDAzur]

" "equal" treatment and "identical" treatment are not the same thing. We can ask that transwomen feel safe but we cannot ask society to pretend transwomen are females to make them feel happy- they are not, they are biologically male. I do not accept the "but it hurts my feelings if you dont let me in the changing room" argument as sufficiently persuasive to perpetuate mass delusions that sex can change or to trump female rights... I believe transwomen are equal to females, but I do not need to pretend they are the same to do this. I do not have to pretend a tall person is short or a gay person is straight in order to treat them equally."

^ This.

[SirVixofVixHall]

Yes. Absolutely Cote. And SpecialAgent- I also have an 11 year old dd, and a younger dd (9). Until recently i also had an elderly mother. Trans ideaology as it stands is refusing to accept that women's experiences of male abuse are different from theirs, and that women have valid reasons for needing spaces segregated by sex, rather than by feelings. They are shafting us, and sadly there are young women complicit in that.

[SpecialAgentFreyPie]

Actually my DD is much younger, that was a hypothetical. Whenever the trans thing comes up no ever mentions girls, unless it's to criticise children for not accepting getting dressed for P.E with a boy. No one talks about the enormous wide spread implications. Like you said, Elderly mother. Should she have to change her swimsuit in front of a man? And why should preteens who are obviously shy and uncomfortable because their bodies are changing, have to take off their shirt in front of a boy in their class? As if he (or she, whatever) wouldn't tell the boys what colour bra so and so was wearing etc. So and so has a weird birthmark. Then sexual bullying begins even younger. All because an adult man likes dresses.

Sorry. Bit of a tangent there!

[SirVixofVixHall]

I agree. My mother would not have used a loo or a changing room if there had been the possibility of someone with a penis in there. She would have found it stressful and distressing. Girls and elderly women are more vulnerable than most, but we all sometimes need a space that is women only. You can't tell what someone is feeling. You can, usually, tell their biological sex.

[MrsHathaway]

I believe transwomen are equal to females, but I do not need to pretend they are the same to do this. I do not have to pretend a tall person is short or a gay person is straight in order to treat them equally.

SO MUCH YES. To act otherwise is a huge retrograde step.

[ExitPursuedByABear]

Is that Peak Trans I see peeping over the horizon?

Maybe.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

And on elderly women (alongside disabled too) we have the issue of intimate care. How do you think a 90 year old woman with dementia and physical health problems will feel to have a male doing her intimate care?

[KateMumsnet]

Morning everyone

As you know, we generally aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, and we don't think there's much to be gained by being too prescriptive on terms; firstly, because our thinking on this is evolving with the public discourse, and secondly because - as ever - context is everything. Our overarching guide in all this is to consider whether posters are treating one another with mutual respect and courtesy; these are the building blocks of a productive discussion.

Broadly, we're unlikely to delete posts which coincide with mainstream scientific orthodoxy. This is very much contingent on tone, however - as ever we'll delete posts which we consider to be disrespectful, goady or a personal attack, and we're unlikely to enter into a discussion about individual posts.

There is debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and we’re very glad that Mumsnet is a place where folks feel able to do so. We're pragmatic, though - there's only so much time that we can devote to this issue without it impacting on our ability to respond to other MNers who need help, so sometimes we make fairly quick decisions on whether or not to delete. Our best advice, therefore, is to stay resolutely within the guidelines.

Hope this is useful.

MNHQ

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

"Our best advice, therefore, is to stay resolutely within the guidelines."

No problemo. And the exact guidelines on transphobia are...?
I rely on this site for a lot of support, I don't want to end up banned for hypothetically refusing to use 'they' at some point in the future. That seems a step beyond a post being "disrespectful, goady or a personal attack" to me?

[CoteDAzur]

Personal attack: I agree, it should not be allowed.

Disrespectful: If this is now a delectable offense, I expect most of AIBU to go up in smoke in the next few hours.

[KateMumsnet]

I address the question of prescriptive guidelines at the top of my post, Beyond.

We've posted about misgendering before - deliberately doing so is not on, I'm afraid.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

I see that Kate, but how can you advise one to stick within guidelines whilst saying guidelines are not prescriptive? How can we stick within non-prescriptive guidelines?

[CoteDAzur]

delectable deletable offense.

Gotta love AutoCorrect

[CoteDAzur]

Beyond - I believe MNHQ isn't being prescriptive on the terms that can be used. Guidelines re goadiness & personal attacks are still cast in stone.

[CoteDAzur]

My question is: How can not using "they" to refer to a person be misgendering? "They" is not a gender in the English language

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

I'll say okay cote, but I'm still not entirely understanding tbh!!

If I hypothetically say that at some point in the future I may lose my temper and personally attack someone (not re trans here at all, just in general) could I be banned for that? Looks the same to me?

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

That is, hypothetically saying I may break a talk guideline at some unknown point in the future...

[CoteDAzur]

In my experience, you get many warnings over a long period before a ban (which is how I'm still here).

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

Yy (luckily ) but is that itself, be it on top of a long list of offences, a ban-able offence? Iyswim?

[SirVixofVixHall]

I disagree on "misgendering" . I agree, obv, that abusive language towards anyone on the grounds of something that they are e.g. their race, nationality, sexual orientation, is wrong. But referring to a human with XY chromosomes, a penis , and testicles as "he" is not "mis-gendering". It is accurate, as our language stands. I don't see why I, as a woman, owe it to men to use the pronoun of their choice. It is all Emperor's new clothes, surely? I would probably use "she" as the pronoun of choice for a trans-woman, to be kind or polite, where I thought that using "He" might be embarrassing for that person. However in private if talking about anyone I use the appropriate pronoun for that person's sex, rather than their chosen identity. I don't see how long term there is any other way, with teenagers now identifying as multiple personalities. Womanhood is not a state one can choose. Not everything in life one might want is attainable. The original thread was discussing a sex offender who was a man, and who used his clearly male sex organs as part of the abuse. Why on God's earth should we have to use the pronoun "she" ?

[MephistoMarley]

Misgendering is a problem because to accept the concept of misgendering you must accept the concept that he and she are pronouns that can be chosen or rejected rather than pronouns attached to verifiable biological fact ie being male or female.
If you reject the concept that he and she refer to self described gender and only view them as referring to sex then misgendering is not a thing. I accept that I'm at odds with much of society on this matter but I don't accept that means I'm wrong.

[SirVixofVixHall]

Yes, that is what i feel Mephisto. You have expressed it more clearly than I did.