Protesting deletions on the thread about trans sex offender

[MephistoMarley]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2699708-to-think-this-person-should-be-in-jail?msgid=62706219#62706219

I thoroughly dispute that my posts or many of the op's posts were transphobic. I stated several times that people can't change sex and that trans women are male, these are absolute, verifiable facts. Not matters of opinion. And definitely not phobic or bigoted statements. Something has changed in your moderation policy recently and a lot more is being deleted for perceived transphobia which wouldn't have previously. What is happening here? Are we being shut down? Are facts beyond the pale at mumsnet now?

[brasty]

I would say to someone's face that no you can not change sex.

[PresidentOliviaMumsnet]

@BeyondLovesSweetDee

I'll say okay cote, but I'm still not entirely understanding tbh!!

If I hypothetically say that at some point in the future I may lose my temper and personally attack someone (not re trans here at all, just in general) could I be banned for that? Looks the same to me?

If you lose your temper and personally attack someone then yes.
We hope that won't happen though -and we review every report on a case by case basis to try and see context (one person's "you atrocious cunt" is another person's "you darling" for example)

Think the guidelines for Sleb web chats make it even easier. If you WOULDN"T say it to someone's face, don't type it on MN.
HTH
peace and love

[morethan]

This

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I've never heard "sky fairy" or "imaginary friend" used in an insulting context, is that referring to religious belief?

Oh they both get used a lot. I'm as atheist as you can get but I don't feel the need to use either expression.

[CoteDAzur]

The difference between transactivism and Christianity is that the latter stopped shoving their dogma down non-believers' throats shortly after the Dark Ages.

I happen to think that "imaginary friend" is a pretty good description for the Abrahamic God, but don't go around faith threads saying so because nobody there demands that I believe in their deity of choice. If they did, I would indeed feel compelled to explain why their dogma is nonsense.

[MrsHathaway]

You've not been on the same threads as me, Vix. It's a bingo card item for any thread about faith schools, for a start!

[SirVixofVixHall]

I've never heard "sky fairy" or "imaginary friend" used in an insulting context, is that referring to religious belief? Because if so, then I would, as the daughter of a profoundly Christian, extremely kind and decent man, find that rather rude and/or offensive, but not to the point of feeling it warranted deletion.

[MrsHathaway]

But MNHQ delete insults all the time as PAs or for -ist language. I spend so much time on trans threads reading posts from different people but thinking "I agree with you, but bloody hell!"

FWIW I find "sky fairy" and similar "imaginary friend" remarks insulting, but not to a level at which I'd report unless in a more generally aggressive post.

[SirVixofVixHall]

linkis.com/www.youtube.com/jegWh This is a good piece.

[SirVixofVixHall]

That is pretty much what Germaine Greer said isn't it? That people are insulting all the time, especially to old women like her . I don't understand this tip-toeing around trans either. I am absolutely baffled. WHY can't we put forward our views, or even the basic scientific facts of something? HOW have we got to this? Especially on an issue that is so damaging for women and girls, why are women just accepting it? I also think it is damaging for trans people themselves, to have an identity so fragile that to have someone call you Sir when you want to be called Madam might drive you to suicide, how is that something to be entrenched into trans ideology? Surely that is the response of a toddler? We are infantilizing a whole generation of non-conforming , conflicted people by pandering to them in this way.

[HermioneWeasley]

It's interesting that for this divergence from accepted scientific fact we have to be polite, but in religious discussion, I've never been deleted for saying "imaginary friend" (for example) or calling homeopathy "bollocks".

Why does one delusion get so much more protection?

People are unkind and disrespectful on AIBU all the time - it's life.

[MrsHathaway]

Broadly, we're unlikely to delete posts which coincide with mainstream scientific orthodoxy. This is very much contingent on tone, however - as ever we'll delete posts which we consider to be disrespectful, goady or a personal attack, and we're unlikely to enter into a discussion about individual posts.

I think that means you can say "a person with XY chromosomes who had a testosterone puberty is physically different from a person with XX chromosomes who had an oestrogen puberty" but not "come the fuck off it: a penis makes you a man no matter how frilly your knickers".

[MephistoMarley]

I agree that I only use chosen pronouns to be polite. That means I don't feel I need to use them for random slebs like Caitlin Jenner. I definitely don't believe I need to recognise a 60 year old sex offender's preferred pronouns. I owe them no courtesy.

[BapsOfSteel]

I think we can as long it's not perceived as done to be mean

[HermioneWeasley]

I'm still none the wiser about whether we can state facts.

[SirVixofVixHall]

Yes, that is a fair point that Mumsnet isn't private. I probably use the same general rules that I apply in rl, in that I use someone's chosen pronoun, if I know it, as a politeness. However I would not use it as a matter of course, so where I felt politeness wasn't essential (eg with regard to a sex offender) then I would use the appropriate sex based pronoun. I don't think of a pronoun as a matter of ones own choice though, I think of it as the accurate choice of the rest of society, rather than something one can choose. I think of it in the same way as your French example. It is also muddled by the issue of "living as a woman/man" as that to me is a nonsensical term. So to me pronouns only apply by sex . It isn't possible to change sex, it is only possible to makes one's appearance more masculine or feminine, and changing the pronoun based on appearance seems dicey, as surely there are plenty of feminine men and masculine women? It just seems to perpetuate the lie. My friend is a six foot tall women who frequently gets called "mate" or "he" by men who haven't looked at her properly. Is this mis-gendering a hate crime? How do we even know someone's choice of pronoun as we go about our daily lives unless they have told us?

[MrsHathaway]

(Sorry, was talking to Vix)

I'm a linguist, so I just don't see the words "he" and "she" as having the sociopolitical weight that you do. For me it's a bit like arguing whether a sign ought to say "No n...ers allowed" or "No blacks allowed" instead of discussing whether racial segregation is legitimate.

[MrsHathaway]

I agree on principle, but when you are posting on MN you aren't making a private remark so your comment doesn't apply in this case.

Tbh I don't think pronouns are a big deal in the general trans debate so I'm happy to use a person's preferred pronouns as a courtesy, just as I would use their chosen name and not dead-name them. It is none of my business how an individual came to choose their own set of name/pronouns.

I think MN is right to forbid deliberate misgendering, because it's so often used in a hateful way.

That's completely separate from a discussion of what category labels people ought to be able to put on themselves. I can call myself Miriam but not Jewish; Elodie but not French; Alexander but not a man.

[SirVixofVixHall]

Yes, that is what i feel Mephisto. You have expressed it more clearly than I did.

[MephistoMarley]

Misgendering is a problem because to accept the concept of misgendering you must accept the concept that he and she are pronouns that can be chosen or rejected rather than pronouns attached to verifiable biological fact ie being male or female.
If you reject the concept that he and she refer to self described gender and only view them as referring to sex then misgendering is not a thing. I accept that I'm at odds with much of society on this matter but I don't accept that means I'm wrong.

[SirVixofVixHall]

I disagree on "misgendering" . I agree, obv, that abusive language towards anyone on the grounds of something that they are e.g. their race, nationality, sexual orientation, is wrong. But referring to a human with XY chromosomes, a penis , and testicles as "he" is not "mis-gendering". It is accurate, as our language stands. I don't see why I, as a woman, owe it to men to use the pronoun of their choice. It is all Emperor's new clothes, surely? I would probably use "she" as the pronoun of choice for a trans-woman, to be kind or polite, where I thought that using "He" might be embarrassing for that person. However in private if talking about anyone I use the appropriate pronoun for that person's sex, rather than their chosen identity. I don't see how long term there is any other way, with teenagers now identifying as multiple personalities. Womanhood is not a state one can choose. Not everything in life one might want is attainable. The original thread was discussing a sex offender who was a man, and who used his clearly male sex organs as part of the abuse. Why on God's earth should we have to use the pronoun "she" ?

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

Yy (luckily ) but is that itself, be it on top of a long list of offences, a ban-able offence? Iyswim?

[CoteDAzur]

In my experience, you get many warnings over a long period before a ban (which is how I'm still here).

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

That is, hypothetically saying I may break a talk guideline at some unknown point in the future...

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

I'll say okay cote, but I'm still not entirely understanding tbh!!

If I hypothetically say that at some point in the future I may lose my temper and personally attack someone (not re trans here at all, just in general) could I be banned for that? Looks the same to me?