should we address the casual antisemitism on MN?

[thedevilinmyshoes]

I rarely venture beyond my narrow range of interests on MN these days so I don't know if it happens a lot, or if a similar level of hatred is extended to other groups, but what I saw tonight was sinister (particularly against the current backdrop of a surge in antisemitic crime in UK). I wondered if we had an agreed definition of what constitutes antisemitism or if people feel the issue is covered and handled well enough within the existing guidelines.

"I was responding to cotes post."

So why did you selectively quote from mine, then?

Every time I mention Jordan (which was the major part of Transjordan pre Israel) it gets ignored. They treated their Palestinian population atrociously and there are almost none left now.

Protests in front of the Jordanian embassy? MN threads about boycotting Jordanian academics? Nope. Thought not. Two wrongs don't make a right but it is indicative of a double standard at work.

Larry - Please read my reply to you and take back your accusation of "defending antisemitism" for saying I thought MNers who opposed me on circumcision threads genuinely thought it is cruel and unnecessary.

Cote quoted directly from yours, to then say yes, and that is why they are not "the other side" in the Israel-Palestiian debate.

Jews disagreeing about Israel is not real debate because actually the Jews are all on the same side.

Oh well.

You can simplify anything to the point where it sounds absurd.

If you go on to say that anyone who practises it is a child abuser, that is implicit anti semitism, in the same way as discriminating against pregnant people is sexism.

What an absolutely absurd statement. I feel exactly the same way about those idiots who pierce their babies ears. What kind of abuser person causes a young baby pain and suffering without their consent when its not medically necessary?? How is that antisemetic? Can a woman choose not to be a woman to avoid sexism?

I would be really interested to know what IS ACTUALLY casual anti-semitism, I've seen a couple of other posts asking that aswell and no one has answered. I can only think of the obvious stuff (my own ignorance, but I'm very open to listening so I can better understand it in future). Accusations of being anti-semetic for my positions on unnecessary suffering not welcome.

Cote,

If you are genuinely not anti Semitic, I apologise. I never accused you of it anyway but did not like the style of one of your posts. I don't know you. Only you know what you really think.

Your views, however, on Jewish group think etc are very poorly thought out.

There is no "Jewish group think" mentioned on this thread except as a Straw Man.

You need to be careful before accusing people of defending antisemitism. Re circumcision, you weren't even aware which side of the debate I was on before you flung out that accusation.

Cote,

Calm down. Your concocted outrage is very telling. why are you so invested in this? Are you Jewish? Are you Palestinian?

How about you address my comment about double standards re Israel and Jordan instead?

You weren't even aware which side of the debate I was on before you flung out that accusation
How awful to be misrepresented!
Yet at the same time, you know what all Jews think re Israel and they are on the other side of the Palestinians.

"Yet at the same time, you know what all Jews think re Israel and they are on the other side of the Palestinians."

She didn't say that.

Incidentally, those people who think objecting to infant male circumcision is anti Semitic- do they also think that objecting to babies having their ears pierced is anti Traveller?

Why resort to petty name calling in a discussion? Calling someone's views "thick", isn't very bright in itself is it? I'm ridiculed and harassed for airing my views on this thread which just really proves my point.

Thanks For answering my question Cote. How horrible must it be to be called "self hating" when you oppose the politics. It's a sorry state of affairs when a political/terrorist movement hijacks religion. Just like Isis is hijacking Islam. If you oppose Isis you are not an islamophobe. If you oppose Zionism you are not anti semetic.

Look at your embarrassing friend

She did say that, several times.

Larry - If I were any calmer, I'd be sleeping. It is not "concocted outrage" to object to being accused of defending antisemitism re circumcision by someone who didn't even bother to find out which side of the debate I am on.

" why are you so invested in this? Are you Jewish? Are you Palestinian?"

I am not Jewish or Palestinian and I'm not "so invested", just have views like everyone else. I'm sorry you can't find an easy label to stick on everyone.

No she didn't. She said, as I did, that Jewish people all feel strongly about the state of Israel. Well, maybe not all do- but I have been alive a long time and I have not met or heard one that doesn't. Which means that the need for the State of Israel to survive is something that, in her experience and in mine, Jewish people agree on.

This says nothing about how Jewish people feel about the Israeli government policy on Palestine, or about anything else.

Is that a little clearer?

Thank you, Bertrand.

A thread on anti semitism has turned into Israel and circumcision. I suspect that's because most posters experiences of being called anti semitic on MN is when these subjects are mentioned.

I think it's clear that people who are not anti semitic do have views on these subjects and it's not right to accuse people who post on these subjects of being anti semitic - unless their anti semitism is obvious.

It's obvious that anti semitism is on the rise in the UK.

However - the thread is about casual anti semitism on MN. There are several posters who keep saying it's obvious on here - well, help us ouit. What examples of casual anti semitism can you quote?

Like I said - that is not denying it doesn'r exist as some posters think. It's asking people to point it out so it can be recognised. Other "isms" are easy to spot - stereotypes, offensive stereotypes, othering, false use of statistics, repeated use of lies, so and so think this etc etc.

Say, Turks are gathering to talk about the events that led to the death and diaspora of many Armenians in1915. Someone might say, "Well, if you want a real debate, get out of comfort zone as well as learn some new facts perhaps not covered in Turkish schools, invite some Armenians rather than just talk among yourselves".

To which I doubt if anyone would go nuts with "Turks don't all think the same" etc.

LaGrosse, you said that Zionist control the media

So of course you post was subject to ridicule. And I am not surprised that you have seen it so many times before. Did you think people would agree with you?

Lisalisa I'm surprised and saddened no one has replied to your post of 0.27. I just wanted to let you know I have seen it and I hear you.

Absolutely- I wanted to reply to lisalisa but wasn't sure what to say, so I did the worst thing and said nothing.

My first though when I read your post was to be amazed at how accepting people were in your childhood-and how tragic that our society is getting less accepting rather than more.

I am so sorry that your family feels so embattled- it must be awful.

Well, thank you Bertrand and cote for telling me what I think and explaining that is why I am not on the other side of the palestinian debate.

Do you perform the same service for all minority groups or just Jewish people?

LaGrosse, the posters here are doing a sterling job of pretending that they have never seen anti-semitism on mumsnet, or that its just silly Jewish people getting confused with anti-circumcision or its because all Jews are on the other side of the palestinians. It therefore does get a bit...awkward...when you come on with your silly anti-semitic views. Kindly desist.

There are zero people who seem to care about this, though. I wonder why.

Protests in front of the Jordanian embassy? MN threads about boycotting Jordanian academics? Nope. Thought not. Two wrongs don't make a right but it is indicative of a double standard at work.

larry, I wonder much the same. Often. The focus implies to me that Jews are held to one standard of behaviour and non-Jews (e.g. the Chinese in Tibet, the Egyptians vis-a-vis the Palestinians) are held to another. But if anyone mentions this on an Israel thread, they are accused of whataboutery. This is not to say that I think everyone who supports the Palestinian cause is an anti-Semite, not by any means, but I agree with you about the double-standard.

A clear message from this thread is that a number of posters are saying they will only engage with antisemitism on their terms, which are:

• guarantees that they won't be criticised for antisemitism when talking about Israel or circumcision;
• guarantees that they won't be unfairly criticised; and
• provision of evidence of antisemitism that they will agree is actually antisemitic.

Would you take this same stance when talking with black people about racism? How would you feel about a man who would only talk about sexism when you did so on his terms, within his definitions and with guarantees upfront? Because my experience as an anti-racist white woman, with black dp, dc, family and friends, is that that is an impossible way to move forward. Sometimes I feel the brunt of people's anger, sometimes I field accusations I feel are unfair. I'm not a wimp and I don't allow others to define my reality - I often argue back. But I do start from an assumption that I need to listen and learn, and not set the terms of the debate.

Privilege is invisible to those who possess it. That is why our first reaction, on hearing any suggestions of oppression, should not be just to dismiss it because we don't see it.

provision of evidence of antisemitism that they will agree is actually antisemitic

Yes, privilege is not being able to see it.

I honestly can't see the anti semitism on here - aside from the Israel and circumcision talk.

This thread is about casual anti semitism on MN. But the OP hasn't really given any examples - but people keep alluding to it.

Racism, transphobia, sexism, homophobia, Islamophobia, anti traveller stuff - so easy to pick out.