should we address the casual antisemitism on MN?

[thedevilinmyshoes]

I rarely venture beyond my narrow range of interests on MN these days so I don't know if it happens a lot, or if a similar level of hatred is extended to other groups, but what I saw tonight was sinister (particularly against the current backdrop of a surge in antisemitic crime in UK). I wondered if we had an agreed definition of what constitutes antisemitism or if people feel the issue is covered and handled well enough within the existing guidelines.

Look for it.
Seek and ye shall find.

Wade through the myriad of circumcision and Israel/Palestine threads.
Marvel at the ease with which posters lump all Jews in the same category of opinion.
Seriously, have a look with a new perspective.

Most of it is innocent, i truly don't think that MN is rife with anti semitism, but as a Jewish woman i am sometimes shocked at the misrepresentation of a whole people.
That's my take on things and my right to express it.

Yes - it's your right. TBH = on Israeli threads, I see a lot more stereotyping coming from people who decide to label people who have concerns over Israel as anti semitic and pro terrorist. Not sure what label that is?

And a lot of people on those threads go out of the way to acknowledge that Israelis have a massive range of views on the issue. They highlight collaborative programs and also mention the atrocities Hamas commit.

I would hope I would pick up on people who stereotype groups. It's a classic way of othering and it's seen on the Internet all the time. MN included.

but as a Jewish woman i am sometimes shocked at the misrepresentation of a whole people

Yes, it's shit.

I don't know why I keep posting on this thread, but here goes. People keep asking for some anti-semitism 101 education, so in case anyone genuinely wants to understand and isn't just baiting, here goes. I will use circumcision as my example. Some, not all, anti-circumcision rhetoric comes across as anti-semitic to Jewish posters. This is because there's some historical background you may not be aware of. So here goes my explanation of that background.

To quote from my synagogue library's copy of 'The Covenant of Circumcision- New Perspectives on an Ancient Jewish Rite' : "Stories of Jews who died for the difference marked by circumcision are part of the general Jewish cultural repertoire. These stories range from the legendary martyred mothers of Maccabean times who knowingly invoked death by insisting on circumcising their sons, to recent memories from the Nazi era."

Those who describe circumcision as child abuse and who use emotive words like 'barbaric', 'mutilation', 'bloody', or who bring up the (very fringe and uncommon) metzitzah b'peh ritual are unwittingly playing into a long tradition of anti-semitic tropes around circumcision. As far back as the mediaeval era, depictions of Jews as 'foreskinne clippers', are common. These rumours were related to the famous Blood Libel, which says Jews want to take the blood of Christian children. We were supposedly so eager for children's suffering that fears Jews would kidnap Christian children to forceably circumcise them or take their blood were a common cause of pogroms. During riots against Jews it was very common for Jewish children to be taken away from their parents and raised as Christians, supposedly for their own good. The case of Edgardo Mortars, a Jewish boy kidnapped from his parents by the church in Italy in 1858 shows these incidents continued for hundreds of years. Indeed there is a group "Hidden Children if the Holocaust" composed of Jewish people who were saved during the killings but whose identity was hidden from them by their adoptive families and who only found out their origins as adults. When people talk about how Jewish parents are abusive or should not be allowed to circumcise their children, this sparks a real fear that their children would actually be taken away.

This painful history invests circumcision with a powerful cultural meaning distinct from its important and related religious role, which I can try to explain in a second post if wanted (sorry for the wall of text)...

I have read the full thread and am still confused. Probably more so than before reading.

I am a pretty liberal person. Very much live and let others live. Am not religious but the 'do unto others etc' is very relevant.

I would never intentionally cause offence to someone because of who or what they are. Cultural differences can make this tricky though.

Fwiw I have always found mn a liberal and informed place. Certainly educational. I am unaware of any antisemitism, casual or otherwise. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Having read the thread I wouldn't know how to recognise the casual aspect. There are lots of allusions but no specifics. This worries me.

TheGoldenApples

Thank you goldenapples. It does help to have some of the context behind something like this.

This makes me uncomfortable. I still disagree with circumcision. I still feel I have the right to disagree with it. Equally I have no wish to cause offence.

So not sure what that leave me on this issue. I hadn't seen it (disagreeing with circumcision) as antisemitic. I don't associate it with one religion or one culture. I see it as a practice found in lots of cultures around the world. A practice I happen to disagree with.

Is there any way to disagree with circumcision without appearing to be antisemitic?

OK, here is a little bit about the religious side of circumcision for Jews. We've seen how anti-semitic stereotypes and bad implications can creep into circumcision debates, but why do Jews think it is such an important ritual anyway?

The first person commanded to circumcise himself is Abraham, the father of the Jewish people (Genesis 17:7) and this becomes a general command to the Jewish people in Lev. 12:2. In Jewish tradition circumcision is considered one of the most important commandments of all - it is the mark of the covenant between Gd and the Jewish people. Our sages saw circumcision as a uniquely important feature of Jewish identity. Even Spinoza, the original Jewish skeptic and atheist, had to admire it & said "the mark of circumcision which they most religiously observe... By itself might preserve their nation forever."

Jewish tradition holds great respect for life and for sexual pleasure. Almost every law not only should but -must- be broken in order to save a life. To imply that we take joy in our children's suffering, or want to mutilate them to destroy their chances of sexual fulfilment as in FGM, is horrifying to us. The two acts are simply not comparable. Circumcision is always delayed if there is any risk to the health of the child. Maimonides explains "Danger to the baby's life is the overriding consideration".

It's obviously not the case that you can't ever debate circumcision with Jewish people, indeed some of us think it's an outdated practice and would not choose it for their own children (as someone upthread posted 'two Jews, three opinions'...) But the -tone- of the debate is incredibly important and this is where anti-semitism tends to leak in, sometimes against people's best intentions. For example, in an 'intactivist' comic by a chap called Matthew Hess, 'Foreskin Man', the depiction of a grinning bloodthirsty 'Monster Mohel' who children must be saved from, veers into anti-semitic territory by virtue of the stereotypes and history I just tried to (briefly) explain above. As long as you stay away from inflammatory language or suggestions that Jewish children should be removed from their families, it should be OK to debate circumcision. But when the subject comes up apropos of nothing, or discussion keeps getting dragged round to it this can feel exhausting and painful to Jews. So keep talk about it to forums specifically labeled for the debate - as a Jewish parent if it's all you ever hear when you mention your religion it can feel excluding.

TheGolden - Your post was very interesting. I did not know about those historical facts and sensibilities of Jewish people regarding circumcision and 'abuse'.

"Those who describe circumcision as child abuse and who use emotive words like 'barbaric', 'mutilation', 'bloody'... are unwittingly playing into a long tradition of anti-semitic tropes around circumcision."

They could just as easily be "playing into" Islamaphobia.

Is it not possible that they actually think cutting babies' foreskin is barbaric mutilation? It is not my view at all, but I don't agree that there has to be a racist undertone whenever someone uses words like 'barbaric' or 'mutilation' about a cultural practice.

"When people talk about how Jewish parents are abusive or should not be allowed to circumcise their children, this sparks a real fear that their children would actually be taken away."

Really? I find it hard to believe that you would actually worry about losing your children because some MNers called something you did 'abusive' or 'barbaric'.

I understand a nation's trauma following a period as horrific as Jews had during WWII, but still...

It would appear not, tilder.

I've been reading this thread all day, and trying to work it out, understand it.

I grew up in a city with a large Jewish population. So much so that at my secondary school (state) we finished lessons a period early on Friday so that Jewish pupils and teachers could get home early enough to celebrate the Sabbath.

I was very involved with the Jewish society at university, and one of my (very serious) boyfriends was Jewish.

So I think I have some understanding/empathy, and have absolutely no desire to be anti-Semitic.

My views, therefore - for what they're worth:

• I haven't noticed casual anti-Semitism on Mumsnet, although it wouldn't surprise me that it was here, given the views that some posters express about Muslims, Catholics, Christians, etc. I would hope that such posts are reported and then deleted. I'm happy to cede that as a non-Jew I may well not notice the casual anti-Semitism, although that makes me feel really bad. (As it would about any posts that were racist, homophobic, etc)

• I think circumcision, unless for definite medical reasons, is barbaric - regardless of the cultural or religious background for this procedure. If my thinking this makes me anti-Semitic, then you will have to call me so.

• I'm still wondering what other examples there are of 'casual' anti-Semitism on MN, and I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for people/Jewish posters, to be more specific about them, so that those of us who don't wish to be defined as anti-Semitic are better informed.

Posts like the ones earlier by LaGrosseVache are too overt and extreme, surely, to be examples of 'casual' anti-Semitism? So what exactly does construe anti-Semitism?

I am in no way trying to be goady here. I've read the whole thread and thought it about it a lot.

Antisemitism is prejudice against, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as an ethnic, religious, or racial group.

"Casual" antisemitism is all of the above but delivered by a person who is unaware of the deep offence such positions can cause.
Their intention may be to amuse or goad or aggravate but not to offend.

A few examples:

• A friend challenges my decision to circumcise my sons.

Definitely not antisemitic. That same friend then accuses me of not loving my sons. Again not antisemitic. This same person then goes on to say "Will you people never listen? You're all the same, arrogant and barbaric child mutilators." Bingo, antisemitic.

• True situation.

We go to dinner at friends'. Conversation gets on to Israeli conflict. Everyone joins in. One person suggests that the Jews are cashing in on the pity they demand in recompense for WW2. That is antisemitism in its sinister form. It's demeaning, disrespectful, upsetting, ignorant, frightening, vile and so much more.

TheGoldenApples has explained why many Jews feel discriminated against.
I promise you we're not making any of this up.

I'm bowing out of this thread now.
It's going round and round and round in circles and there's really no need because i think we're all basically in agreement.

Yes, I think it's time for me to bow out as well. I didn't want to join the thread at first because it started oddly and there was a lot of shadow-boxing, which hasn't helped anybody. For the record, I see relatively little antisemitism on MN - though I have certainly seen some. I really joined the thread because I was pissed off at how dismissive and minimising so many posters were being.

But I do want to be constructive, so I'll add to StonedMoses's list.

I start getting twitchy when people start talking about Jews as a group as - or suggest Jewish individuals are highly likely to be - rich, powerful, clannish, tight, vulgar or loud.

I have no problems with people being critical of Israeli domestic and foreign policy. But I think it if offensive, insensitive and ineffective when they suggest that Israel is the most uniquely awful state anywhere ever, or when they argue that Zionism is intrinsically racist (i.e. originally motivated by the desire to oppress others), or when they bleat that 'after what they've been through, you'd think they know better', or when Jews everywhere are held responsible for the actions of Israel.

I have no problems with people being critical of circumcision. But too often criticism of the practice leads to ad hominem attacks on the Jewish people - 'barbaric practice' becomes posters insisting that everyone who would do this must be a sick, evil child abuser. I've also read, many times, that Judaism must be a sick religion if it advocates circumcision. Hey presto, nearly all Jews are sick, evil people. That is antisemitic. Some posters asked how they could criticise circumcision without being accused of antisemitism - well, that day is as far off coming as the day I can defend circumcision without being told I'm condoning child abuse. But I personally would have no argument with somebody who said, "I understand that, for Jews, circumcision is a covenant with God. And that means they view it not just as a loving act, but as an absolutely vital and fundamental expression of their faith. But I cannot get my head round mutilating a newborn for no clinical reason; it is unethical and wrong. Though I recognise the dangers of restricting religious freedom - particularly with a minority population which has faced oppression for millennia - I still believe this act is not acceptable in a secular state". Or something like that.

Do you see the difference? One is anger and blame with a closed mind, the other is emphatic but acknowledging the complexities and sensitivities involved.

I had to have a little smile at one of the loudest, drum bangers complaining they feel silenced and shut down.

I also particularly enjoyed being told by a non-Jew how non-Zionists are perceived in the Jewish community. You don't have a clue. You see the vocal Zionists on the news and social media, you don't see what goes on in our communities.

Golden and stoned, thanks v much indeed, horrified by Lisa's post, horrified by your story, stoned.

I do recall, several years ago, the nerves felt by various friends when a significant proportion of Mrs thatcher's cabinet was Jewish as they feared that if something went wrong it would be blamed on the Jews. Made me pause then and ever afterwards.

May I ask one final question, which I would ask anyone having a baby circumcised, which is about pain relief? . Thank god we have moved on from the Victorian view that babies don't feel pain. I know that when we had DS and we needed to decide whether or not to go down that route, it was something I took into account. But in some religious traditions, eg some types of Christianity, pain relief is not acceptable at various points, eg when dying you need to be in your right mind when you meet your maker, so the thinking goes. Sorry to be so ignorant.

Debora, I think you have put the circumcision position and indeed the Israel position well.

I do think there can be knee jerk reactions, both sides. But that is no excuse for poor behaviour and worse thinking.

Thank you, all three.

pS, if you don't want to answer on this thread, completely understand as you have all said you wanted to bow out.

Very interesting reading about the details and history of circumcision and what it means for the religion, so thank you to the previous few posters for furthering the discussion.

Of course it doesn't change my views, but its opened my eyes and made me think on the subject a bit more which can only be a good thing. I guess its like what I said earlier, when you don't believe there is a god it can be hard to remember that for others its a very real thing. This thread certainly stands as a reminder though.

Themodernuriahheep. I've nipped back to answer your question concerning pain relief.
Yes, pain relievers are often used.
Local anaesthetic creams are widely used.

The Mohel who perform the circumcision are highly trained experts who can usually complete the proceedure in less than one minute.
(30-50 seconds is normal)

I shan't claim that the whole thing is pain free.

As parents to four men (all circumcised) i feel no guilt.
I do however totally understand opposition to it.

I'm really going now.

Bye and shalom aleikhem.

Devora, that was very interesting, thank you.
I didn't know that detail, but I have always accepted that circumcision was an important part of Judaism.
I also accept that it's an important part of Islam, and I accept that it's a useful part of some doctors' income in the US.

I hope that in return you can accept the sincerity of people like me who object to the cutting up of babies' genitals for non-medical reasons, by any of those groups. And that we can do so without being anti- the people any of those groups.

I certainly do accept your sincerity and good faith, Sallyingforth

Stoned, thanks. Yes, I knew the Mohel were highly trained. And I cannot see why you should feel guilt at all, personally, but I know others thread disagree.

You see the vocal Zionists on the news and social media, you don't see what goes on in our communities.

I'm certain that's true, and an outsider can never really know.

I'm also certain that if one said:

"You see the vocal Islamists on the news and social media, you don't see what goes on in our communities."

It's interesting that two communities so opposed to each other can have so many parallels, including of course the circumcision.

Thank you, Devora

Time for bed...

Well, I wouldn't ever characterize Jews and Muslims as two communities so opposed to each other but I appreciate it may sometimes appear that way to some.

I was about to say the same thing, Helmet.

You're right of course. I chose the wrong world there. It's not the communities that are opposed, but the extremists within them who are opposed.
I fell into the same old trap of treating everyone within the community as being the same. Should have gone to bed earlier. Very sorry!