I wonder if having a Transgender topic might be useful?

[LaurieFairyCake]

It seems like a growth area and quite often discussed.

It would be helpful for the threads to hang about for longer than 30 days so people could be pointed in the direction of them
too.

You have two whole topics that we don't discuss the feminist aspects on, we have no topic where we aren't called hateful bigots for putting women's safety and needs above those of a small proportion of born males. And you want us to not discuss things on relevant threads in the general boards too? How is this not silencing?

Culture there have been several threads in Chat just recently stated by posters just commenting on things they have seen on TV and raising genuine questions/comments that have led to discussions that have been derailed by this ongoing feminist argument.

This would bot be a problem if it didn't get so heated and at times downright nasty.

It's not derailment to post about the feminist perspective!

Queen I am not saying it is not a valid debate!

I am not saying you can't post wherever you like!

All I am saying is could you pleeeeeease not ALWAYs bring it onto general chat topics where it turns into a bunfight when it started out by a discussion about summat seen on TV last night that might actually be a good taking point to discuss some pro trans issues.

And could you refrain from it getting personal when there are people with opposing views to your own, as you did to me earlier?

I know, I have seen those threads. Your opinion is that they were derailed, others might disagree. Are you definitely saying that anyone who you perceive to hold these views you disagree with should not be allowed to post on threads in Chat? How should this be achieved? Or are you asking that people voluntarily don't post on these threads? Because that seems like silencing to me.

"The quote marks are offensive because it implies the person isn't a real person just pretending."

Look again. Quote marks are around "transgender", not "person". What this implies is that it is not at all certain that the child in question is actually transgender, supported by the fact that about 80% of "transgender" children grow out of these feelings and go on to live non-trans lives.

"Cote many people hide specialist topics LGBT children AND the feminists boards because they prefer not to engage, why should I not have the space to debate my angle like you have in Chat"

You already have that space in Chat. Nobody is trying to shut you up. You are the one trying to shut us up, saying we should not talk about how trans issues affect women's lives in Chat. Again, sorry, but you can't do that.

"Trans issues such as the failure of the NHS to provide adequate counselling services for MH issues"

Why don't you start a thread about this, if you want to talk about it?

" a general discussion about trans people in the media eye"

We have had quite a few threads on this subject following the adoration of Caitlyn Jenner on Vanity Fair and elsewhere. The topics you don't wish to see emerge naturally on these threads:

• So CJ had facial surgery, tucked his penis & balls between his legs, wore a corset, and put on heavy make-up. Does all that make CJ a woman?
• When CJ "becomes a woman" at the age of 60+, the first thing she does is squeeze into a corset and pose for photographs with hands seemingly bound behind her back. What does that mean for the perception of women?
• CJ said "My brain is mostly female" - Is there such a thing or not?

etc etc

So pro trans people should be allowed to spout their agenda (which is damaging to women and children) without being 'derailed' by feminists when feminists aren't allowed to have a discussion without being called bigots?

Culture all I am seeing is that the vocal feminists (who are entirely entitled to their views) are SO vehement and SO anti anything trans being discussed from any other perspective that they effectively silence a large portion of MN who might like to talk about other aspects.

I don't know what the answer is, but it would be healthier to have differing points of view, and not have posters feel they are wrong for expressing them or because they don't have the most recent stats for something or the latest quotes to back up their posts.

Floundering - where is your evidence for those "silenced" by the "vocal feminists?"

And this is not a valid case. Everyone, you included, is posting from their own point of view.

It's just that you don't like points of view different from yours because you are very defensive (understandably) about your child.

Queen There are many pro trans people who do not spout anything damaging to women and children, they are often women and children themselves, do not group everyone together just to suit your argument.

I do not call ALL feminists bigots but yes there are some bigoted views among the more vocal ones, but that's not the point.

Or let's try again - what other perspective would you like trans to be discussed from? Specifically? I will happily engage with any agenda you set.

Hully There are many silenced, I have had PM's from them and several have posted once or twice on here and then retreated because the arguments get so heated.

I don't have a problem with opposing points of view, it is the way it is offered, in a very confrontational way, that makes those of us with trans children, who are already going through a terrible time, questioning ourselves, feel we are in the wrong.

I remember the good old days where it was the gender critical feminists who felt they couldn't speak their minds and ended up conducting conversations via PM.

I have a friend with an older trans child, I have every sympathy for her and her child, but it doesn't stop me from seeing all the issues and being interested in them, or from wanting women's hard-won spaces to be protected.

Wanting one thing doesn't preclude sympathy and seeing the hardships of another. I think that's true for most people.

For those of us who have spent our lives battling in a patriarchal system, that fight is going to remain paramount, as it needs to.

HullyThank you -that would be good.

At some pouint I would like to discuss the whole process of transitioning and its effects on the family to enable some posters on here to see the real effects on real people not just the stats behind it all. Not a touchy feely thread but a factual one. (although obvs emotions do come into it)

Sadly I haven't got the time just now as I have to get some work done before (ironically) I take my son off to gender clinic for our family assessment to enable him to start getting the hormones he needs to start the long transitioning process. Not an easy day.

I have received PMs from people who have been silenced by trans activists Floundering.

Oh and believe me in our household we do our fair bit of battling the patriarchy!!

"you don't like points of view different from yours because you are very defensive (understandably) about your child."

Yes, completely understandable. Floundering, don't think we don't sympathise. We are all mothers here and do of course sympathise with the difficulties you must have faced and are no doubt still facing as you try to do what you can for your child.

But these discussions are not about you.

I can understand that it hurts your feelings when people say "With the help of hormones and surgery, one can only resemble the other sex and not become it" because you so want to believe the contrary, but there are feelings and there is the stark biological reality.

I sincerely hope your child can find peace and happiness in the path that he has chosen.

We will still continue to discuss trans issues and agenda that affect women's rights and safety, though.

I don't see feminists trying to name the terms of things that are eroding women's rights as hate or bigotry. Real hate or bigotry occurs when ordinary people feel they can't open debates about their fears or realities because they may be accused of predjudice. It's how groups like the EDL and BNP get a foothold in small towns with high BME communities and I don't believe that is a good way forward for anyone. With the current changes in legislation all it will take is one incident of someone using the bathroom loophole to attack or kill the 'right' type of girl eg. White, photogenic, middle class etc..and the tide will probably turn into some kind of trans witch hunt. I think this sort of thing is what feminists DON'T want to happen.

If there are behind the scenes efforts to challenge the more damaging and vocal transactivism I would welcome this becoming more visible. A few balanced points of view from trans people in the media, acknowledging why women may have safety concerns and how to reach a solution would be good. If the Guardian et al are refusing to give the moderate trans community a voice we should be asking the question why?

Floundering- I can understand that you feel under attack because of your son's experience. I have a child with a neurological disorder and being made to feel like a bad parent seems to be par for the course. As with any condition I have had to acknowledge the impact of others, other parents of his classmates do sometimes complain about effects on their child. I can't dismiss this just because I love him, have a better understanding of him than others and see how much more he has to struggle than other children. The reality is that if his participation in mainstream causes more problems for others outweighing the benefits to him he will end up being excluded for the greater benefit. I don't see the trans debate as vastly different.

However from one mother to another I feel very sad for your struggle.

"I do not call ALL feminists bigots but yes there are some bigoted views among the more vocal ones"

Bigoted "views" such as dictionary definitions?

Woman: Adult human female

Female: The sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs

There is no definition of these words in the English language that covers males who feel female or feel like a woman. Is it bigoted to say so?

There are many many trans women who are horrified about the way the trans activists are acting and would no more want to upset anyone than any of us would, I just wish it would not seem like this vocal and nasty minority are taking over the world

I agree with this and I wonder if what we are seeing is an abuse of, or appropriation of, trans issues by these male transactivists. The trans community can't ignore them or expect women to ignore them because the fact is that they do cause real harm. They fact that they constitute a tiny minority of the trans community is almost an irrelevance given the damage they cause.

And the problem is that the trans community hasn't left us any way of identifying them or naming them. These monsters hide behind the transwoman label and use trans rights to abuse women. In allowing transwomen the right to access woman only spaces, we have created a gap that allows these individuals into spaces they have no right to be. And they have been abusing it.

Are feminists right to conflate these individuals with other transwomen who simply want to live their lives ? Probably not, but we don't have a name for them other than what they have given themselves, which is transwomen. And they're being credited as trailblazers, as being representative of trans individuals. I'm sorry but that puts the onus on transwomen to reject them and to say, not in our name. And yes there are some transwomen doing that but they're attacked and belittled and forcibly silenced in some instances because they do not have the weight of the transcommunity behind them speaking out.

Is the average transwoman a threat in woman only spaces ? I doubt it very much but in the same way that we don't expect women to have to identify and keep themselves safe from rapists, we can't expect women to identify and keep themselves safe from the tiny minority of men who exploit the current legal position. The transcommunity seem to like words - maybe if they came up with a word to describe these men who move among them, we could all identify the real issue and come together against them to ensure safety for genuine transwomen and biological women. The trans community opened the door to this problem and if they don't shut it themselves, they can't complain if women resort to slamming it in their faces.

I have seen one poster on the trans threads who could be described as bigoted or transphobic and she was challenged. I see people using male pronouns which I understand is construed as transphobia but I think that is arguable. I personally do not accept the label of transphobia, I am happy to use female pronouns and names to describe trans women and in general I'm happy to share spaces with trans women who are respectful and non threatening (as I would also expect from women).
I cannot accept the dogma of female brains or innate gender because it is completely opposite to my beliefs relating to gender roles and I believe it is a harmful concept to women and girls.
I don't accept the label cisgender because I believe my gender identity evolved from my lived experience as a woman and girl and as such the concept of inner gender and outer sex matching or not matching is one that I reject.
There are lots of ways in which I am gender conforming and ways in which I am not. I don't believe that any of it reflects my inner self which is ungendered.

Probably the best way of solving this is to silence women's voices that dissent from the transactivist dogma, eh MNHQ?

That'll work.

And Transgender people's views that also dissent from it.