OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

People who comment on the thread to let others know to be careful not to be sucked in are rounded on and called bully's. And are troll hunters and are basically shouted down.

And what if you are wrong and it is not a troll? Report to MN and let them deal with it, and don't expect some detailed reply, I'd guess they are fairly busy...

@EatDereksCorpse

Ok. I'll type it again missing bits out.

Thanks

@EatDereksCorpse

As I said people don't report threads as the usual reply is just 'we will keep an eye out'

No, this isn't fair really.

If we take a look and we agree it looks dodgy, we'll do something about it. But we do need something to go on; we can't delete and ban people just because one or two reporters don't like their style.

We have banned and deleted scores of posters and threads over the past couple of weeks.

If we say 'we'll keep an eye on it' it's because, having had a pretty good look, we can't see any reason to be suspicious, or because we can see things that indicate the poster is on the level. We're always happy to revisit those ones if new information emerges, but in the meantime, no troll-hunting is the rule.

If you have deleted scores of threads and posters over the last couple of weeks is it any wonder some posters don't believe a bloody thing on here any more.

And that's the Trolls fault, not the troll hunters.

Why do people think Mumsnet is some kind of social service?

We have banned and deleted scores of posters and threads over the past couple of weeks.

Would it help if the deletion messages stated whether the poster had actually been banned/sin binned?

I think a lot of people get fed up of reporting because they're not seeing the consequences.

Yesterday a poster name changed just to start a TAAT...and a pretty nasty one at that, taking the pee out of another poster's thread.

All the deletion message said was it was a TAAT, but what I'd like to know is, was the person banned for abusing the name change function and taking the pee out of the original poster?

If you can take a firmer stand on the cowardly name changers who simply want to cause trouble, it might cut down on the trolling.

Just jumping in here to say that I also think suicide threads should be answered with a list of help lines and then locked. We're words on a screen, and it's a dangerous assumption that we can provide real help.

Quick to delete dereks post but can I ask? Why have all the posts been left up which mentions the recent 'suicidal' posters name?

You said you wanted to keep this thread general and yet...

And I also agree suicidal threads should be locked.... For everyone's sake!

If the people who say they actually work for and with MH services are erring on the side of - lock the thread and provide appropriate support contact details/advice I think they should be listened to.

I'm repeating what lots of people have said but fundamentally MN is just a chat site, yes it's supportive, yes people gain a lot from being on here, but suicide notes...Come on! Nobody is equipped to deal with that properly. And the MH professionals that are have said they'd avoid those threads like the plague. Some individuals seem to enjoy being 'needed' and 'helping' over and above the norm, that draws trolls like flies to honey.

Remember New Year when the site was taken off line for a while? People were so angry and outraged because MN may be a lifeline and it may have prevented people from getting support. it was crackers.

@WorraLiberty

We have banned and deleted scores of posters and threads over the past couple of weeks.

Would it help if the deletion messages stated whether the poster had actually been banned/sin binned?

I think a lot of people get fed up of reporting because they're not seeing the consequences.

Yesterday a poster name changed just to start a TAAT...and a pretty nasty one at that, taking the pee out of another poster's thread.

All the deletion message said was it was a TAAT, but what I'd like to know is, was the person banned for abusing the name change function and taking the pee out of the original poster?

If you can take a firmer stand on the cowardly name changers who simply want to cause trouble, it might cut down on the trolling.

Well, we've always tried to avoid the public punishment thing. Our view is: we're all adults and nobody needs to be hung out to dry in front of a crowd.

Where someone is an absolute slam-dunk troll and has been banned, we do tend to let reporters know and put it in the deletion message. But anything that has a grey area, we've always found it best to keep more private between us and the poster concerned. We do occasionally get things wrong, after all, and don't want to publicly announce that someone was a troll/has been banned and then subsequently find out we'd made a howler.

Not sure about the other TAAT you're referring to - can you mail in and we'll take a look?

We did agree recently that we would suspend people's ability to namechange if they abused it and we're happy to carry on doing that. It would be helpful if you could flag up in your report that that's one of the reasons you're reporting them.

As Snakey said, it is a dangerous assumption that random people on an Internet forum can provide real help - but like many others last night, I left this forum deeply worried that troll hunting pitchfork wavers may have caused real life harm to a vulnerable poster at a dark time.

Be reported threads where posters have said blatantly this is bollocks and they've been left to stand

@26Point2Miles

Quick to delete dereks post but can I ask? Why have all the posts been left up which mentions the recent 'suicidal' posters name?

You said you wanted to keep this thread general and yet...

Obviously that's the thread that prompted all this soul-searching 26 so it wouldn't really make sense to try to have a discussion about it without mentioning it at all. We're asking people to not post up anything that implies that any identifiable poster is trolling - none of the posts on this thread are making that insinuation we think?

Ok, 2 very simple ideas which might work to help prevent some trolls.

• have a join date by the username. Either month/year, or 1week/1 month/6 months/3 years etc. it should relate to the registered email address.

• don't grant the ability to create threads until x amount of minimum posts have been reached.

I don't know why it hasn't been implemented when it's all been suggested before.

Just posting to say I agree that threads about suicide should be locked and the poster directed to the Samaritans. We're randoms on the intertubes, we can't possibly provide help and support to people who are at such a low ebb. And I can see how it could be dangerous to expect us (the general us) to do that.

*I've

Also I like the idea of having a joining date or number of previous posts attached to our names.

@JustScreamNobHurts

Be reported threads where posters have said blatantly this is bollocks and they've been left to stand

Sorry nob, are you saying you have reported them and they've been left to stand?

We don't bend over backwards to delete troll-hunting posts if we have actually banned the poster concerned as a troll - it seems a bit needlessly punitive really. So it might have been something like that.

Equally, sometimes posters are saying 'this account of events doesn't make sense' and in certain circs (and this is why we try to play it by ear) we think that's a valid thing to say and isn't the same as calling someone a troll; it can be a genuine observation that something isn't adding up, possibly because the OP has deliberately left something out to avoid being identified.

Ok thanks Rowan

I can't get into my email at the moment but will mail the info later.

I understand why you don't want to publicly hang people, but at the same time if people saw that there was a consequence, it might cut down on people doing it (abusing the name changing I mean), and it might give people the confidence to report because they can see there's some point in reporting.

Because the most insidious trolls work behind the scenes for months creating a back story?

The hit and run trolls do far less damage. They crash onto MN late and night, tell some tall tale, update their thread every 25 seconds for a day or so and then a) get rumbled b) get bored.

The ones that do lasting damage have been on the site for YEARS.

Obviously that's the thread that prompted all this soul-searching 26 so it wouldn't really make sense to try to have a discussion about it without mentioning it at all.

No it's not. This has been brought to the fire many times before. It's just your guidelines focus more on troll hunting than trolls. You've now got people more obsessed with outing troll hunters than stopping to bloody well think before they start seriously engaging with posters who are either trolls or in the darkest of places.

I certainly don't think MNHQ mentioning Mnetters have "saved" people before is a good idea do you?

The next person who wants to be a mumsnet saviour could end up the victim of a nasty troll or axe wielding murderer. Not good for for the site.

I'm talking about a poster blatantly saying

This isn't true

You've made it up

That didn't happen

So by definition accusing the op of fiction.

And of all the abbreviation of my name you picked Nob are you trying to tell me something?

- don't grant the ability to create threads until x amount of minimum posts have been reached.

Problem with this is a lot of people may lurk, and only post if they need help/advice - this would prevent them making that thread asking for help.

@JustScreamNobHurts

And of all the abbreviation of my name you picked Nob are you trying to tell me something?

Arf, sorry.

Do we say somewhere that MNers have 'saved' people? Can you flag up where and we'll take a look?

Our Guidelines don't obsess over either we think, tbh. Everything that's not allowed is in the Guidelines and it's all given equal weight. Trolling isn't allowed, and neither is troll-hunting. Admittedly, the second is more prima facie easy to spot than the first in a lot of cases, but there isn't a lot we can do about that!