OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

Are MNHQ considering not taking the advice you've sought from the Samaritans et al about suicide threads if it comes into conflict with the opinions of some posters which it's bound to?

TBH I don't think MNHQ should be giving the impression that this sort of policy decision up for discussion. A decision needs to be made and implemented about something where there is no right answer.

Plus it will clog up the boards with inane "me too!" type responses while people try and get the post count up.

Ok I'll spell it out and probably get deleted, but wombat has been mentioned by name here.... On this very thread!

This: I agree that the troll-hunting can come across as bullying. Personally, I think more needs to be done to crack down on anyone publically calling troll. If people are worried that others are being sucked in they can report to MNHQ & PM those they're concerned about to share their theory. That won't cause any distress to a genuine poster in an unusual situation.

On suicide threads or anything else, because there's no way to tell if that person posting in relationships, or AIBU, or even crafting isn't on the edge, if you think it's a troll: DON'T FEED THE TROLL. Being called out is a wonderful snack for trolls. Report and stay silent. No other Readers dont need to 'rescue' the naive who may be sending phone numbers or cash or otherwise making contact. That's their lookout, their error, and no more your real world problem than the OP you believe is a troll.

Suicide post serve a purpose, much like some posts in Relationships help a admit that she really, actually does need to call Womens Aid, or posts discussing symptoms might help someone really actually face the need to seek medical help. i think a policy of considering any response from posters that isn't either supportive or a link to any of several appropriate organizations should be considered bad form/disallowed. No matter what any other MNetter may think is going on, there is no justification for ever responding to a suicide posts with potentially hazardous negativity. No, not even to pretend you are being a superhero trying to save stupid responders from themselves.

Calling out trolls in public serves no useful purpose.
If you are wrong, you are bullying.
If you are right, then you are feeding them.
If you start a discussion on it or inspire a believer to defend them then you drive up the popularity of the thread.
You may be suspected of being a troll, the sort that likes to bully OPs by hijacking their thread and turning readers against them.

No matter what the topic, the ONLY appropriate response to a suspected troll is to report. After that, you can lay low and observe, or leave the thread. Anything else is feeding the troll.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

- don't grant the ability to create threads until x amount of minimum posts have been reached.

Problem with this is a lot of people may lurk, and only post if they need help/advice - this would prevent them making that thread asking for help.

Yes, we'd probably be reluctant to stop brand new users actually starting threads. We will look at the post count idea though.

@26Point2Miles

Ok I'll spell it out and probably get deleted, but wombat has been mentioned by name here.... On this very thread!

She's mentioned in the OP 26 - quite extensively! But nowhere is it being implied that she's not on the level (we think? Do flag if we've missed something)

I have said this before and will again re trolling . Anyone new who registers waits a certain length of time before posting privelege.
This works for opportunist trolls and is used on one mental health forum I know of although they have chat room .
Yes I realise that some people need support in the here and now which has been the MNHQ response in the past ....but there are other avenues open on the internet like Samaritans for those who need a listening ear when searching internet for support .
I find it a bit difficult to imagine a new person searching for help to access mumsnet as first option . So delaying posting privelege may stop some trolls I think

I'm also very saddened by this.

It seems to me that mnhq can say "we have no proof that X is a troll" but they can never say "we have proof x isn't a troll" unless they go and visit x and check her medical history and all the facts of the case, which they are blatantly unable to do.

I'm saddened that this is the one site where they will believe someone, no matter how impossible the story, and how many times the story changes, and how many times the story has been posted, unless they can absolutely categorically prove it to be false - which of course they can never do.

Weeping over a sad troll thread is feeding the trolls
Telling your own sad stories is feeding the trolls
Pming your phone nos is feeding the trolls
Place marking for the next installment is feeding the trolls.

You have a very naive view of what trolls,troll for.

@MrsLettuce

Are MNHQ considering not taking the advice you've sought from the Samaritans et al about suicide threads if it comes into conflict with the opinions of some posters which it's bound to?

TBH I don't think MNHQ should be giving the impression that this sort of policy decision up for discussion. A decision needs to be made and implemented about something where there is no right answer.

We do take your point MrsL but MN has been unusual for a long time in this respect - both that we seek users' views on all sorts of things, and that so far we have usually allowed posts referring to suicide to stand.

@Bassetfeet

I find it a bit difficult to imagine a new person searching for help to access mumsnet as first option . So delaying posting privelege may stop some trolls I think

Well talking v generally Basset (ie not just about people who are feeling suicidal) it's actually the case that a lot of people find MN through searching a particular term and finding that a MN thread is one of the highest and most useful search results. MN is very 'highly indexed' (in SEO terms) and pops up on the front page of all sorts of weird and wonderful search terms. So yes, tbh an awful lot of people will go from 'searching for [chicken coops/bootcut jeans/domestic violence advice] and arrive at MN and be ready to ask a question within minutes. And we'd be reluctant to do something that would effectively turn them away at the door.

SlimyToad - i think the post so many posts before you can start a thread will be not taken up because of the need for someone to need the help in their own right. Of course that could be got around by posting a few replies on an innocuous thread.

Yes, all of that is also true, Woooo. But that is their error.

derek mentioned that trolls should be called to save those with a saviour complex from doing stupid things. Though to my mind, assuming responsibility for saving them, is a bit of a saviour complex in itself.

@ScaryZ

I'm also very saddened by this.

It seems to me that mnhq can say "we have no proof that X is a troll" but they can never say "we have proof x isn't a troll" unless they go and visit x and check her medical history and all the facts of the case, which they are blatantly unable to do.

I'm saddened that this is the one site where they will believe someone, no matter how impossible the story, and how many times the story changes, and how many times the story has been posted, unless they can absolutely categorically prove it to be false - which of course they can never do.

Absolutely categorically proving something to be false isn't the standard - as you say, that would be impossibly high. It's about the balance of probabilities, and any factors we can see behind the scenes. We can and do ban people on this basis several times a day (and probably more at the moment)

Oh, I really like your logic there, Momagain1. Beautiful.

I've hit the "Report" button an awful lot, in the past week or so, and don't feel like it's never been worth it. There have been times in the past when something has made me feel very uneasy and MNHQ haven't seen anything obviously untoward, but then it isn't always obvious.

And while I will own up to pointing it out publicly if a person has a really obvious posting history that's all over the Internet, doing exactly the same thing as in their OP and people are seeming to be confused by it (we've had a lot of those in the past week or so) but last night's "what happened to..." thread was truly horrible in tone. It became an example of the worst type of gossip - a question asked, a reply with one person's version of events and then people piling in and building on that one reply.

Suicide note threads really do need to be pulled. The risks for so many people truly outweigh any benefits. I don't doubt that Keema was helped, at her lowest point, but the more recent thread illustrated all the ways in which it can go wrong:

• people giving out personal info
• people becoming upset
• we have no idea how many people didn't post on that thread, but found it highly triggering
• and then the fall out - the speculation and troll hunting.

And, aside from your average MNer neither having the training nor the access to support necessary to deal with such posts, there really is nothing to stop someone with all the tact and sensitivity of Jimmy Carr piling in and saying something incredibly damaging, just for shits and giggles. of course, anyone who posts something of a personal nature on a public forum opens themselves up to this possibility, but the stakes aren't usually quite so high.

Thanks for answering Rowan . I understand better now your reasons .
We are not so much a village but a large city of resources.

I am so on the fence about this.

I think troll hunting is not a good idea in general (although I may have done it once or twice as innocent people can be given a hard time when they are actually in a difficult situation (I have namechanged to post for advice and was torn apart as I was suspected to be trolling- it was a strange situation but i wasn't).

However it is frustrating to see people being sucked in by some trolls when it takes a while for them to be deleted.

Or indeed if they are said not to be a troll by MNHQ but later are banned for trolling after causing problems (sometimes to me).

But I can see MNHQ need to have some concrete evidence before banning people and can't just go on a gut feeling like us lot do.

So..basically..I have nothing useful to contribute and am on fence

I'm also a bit pissed off at the assumption that anyone who doubts any op at all about any detail is a troll-hunter and a bully hmm MNHQ must delete hundreds of threads every week that are posted by trolls, so there is obviously a problem. Why are some posters so adamant that no OP can every be telling a lie/exaggerating/downright making the whole thing up?

Surely the point is that if you doubt the OP you don't post on the thread, you report. I don't think anyone is suggesting that no OP is a lie.

I do think some posters have an AMAZING trolldar and MNHQ should take their reports very seriously..if they don't already of course.

@Maryz

I find it bizarre that an unmoderated board, with no professionals available to support op's and readers of threads, will go against the advice of the provessionals and encourage people to post live suicide threads

We're not encouraging it. We provide a platform, and our members use it. So long as it doesn't break our Guidelines it will stay up. What we're discussing now is whether to change our Guidelines.

@Maryz

Will you at the very least move them to a part of the board every one can hide. And give The NightWatch instructions to move any started at night.

One thing we have to hold our hands up to is that we haven't always been moving these threads to Mental Health, which we promised to do last time we had this discussion. This is absolutely our bad and we will make sure we do this from now on (and ask the Night Watch to do the same).

I'm not sure someone really wanting to commit suicide would bother to post on a forum to talk about it. I think people who do are really just crying out for help and are hoping to be talked out of it.

however I have not been in that position and have no expertise so am willing to be told I am wrong :)