OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

Itsfab..thats just it. Its too risky for people who are suicidal to post on MN as there are too many posters who may be harsh. Which doesnt usually matter in AIBU but could have awful consequences elsewhere.

I mean I'm sure certain posters would actually tell someone suicidal to "get a grip".

If someone did actually complete, then it wouldn't be the fault of the site or anyone on it. It would be fault of the absolutely crippling depression that poster was suffering from.

I actually agree with NanaNina that if someone posted that they were going to do themselves in on a particular day by a particular means and lay the blame on someone then yes, that ought to go, but that's pretty rare.

Also, what stickymousemat has just said. We're adults.

People don't know they are going to be called a troll

Posters can't say for definite whether the poster that brought forth this discussion is a troll,or isn't. MNHQ have said even they can't tell. It's dealt with off board.

Mumsnet cannot stop trolling no. But they can set protocols,for certain types of thread. Suicide one, follow Mind recommendations. Pervy gits, lock the thread. Don't leave it for a bit for the lolz, just lock it. Spoofy threads .... If it's harmless than edit the title to say edited by MNHQ Spoof MNHQ love editing titles.

Sitting and wringing our hands does bugger all.

Thanks for all the suggestions - we will note them all and discuss, promise.

I second ExtraWickedDevil in asking this:

What I would really like is some honesty. Troll hunting is bullying and it is really unedifying to read posts from people who are kicking vulnerable people when they are down. Do they get banned? Or are they just "reminded" of the talk guidelines?

See, I don't think locking a suicide thread is saying "you're not welcome here."

It's saying "we humbly admit we are not worthy enough to help you through this, here is where you need to go for the best chance at getting the help you need. We want you to live."

It is important that posters are allowed to discuss mental health issues including thoughts of suicide, it really is vital that that is allowed to stand.

That is so different to someone writing a 'goodbye' post and stating their clear intention to go and kill themselves now then buggering off and not posting for a while leaving posters who want to be supportive bewildered and concerned.

The MH forum does discussion and support very well on the whole I think. It would be very sad if posters didn't feel able to talk about their troubles in here.

It's just frustrating because as I read through these posts I have read several times that people are feeling any intervention by MN would stop discussion about suicidal thoughts or feelings of hopelessness. I don't believe many people are actually suggesting that should be stopped and I don't believe for one minute MNHQ would go to that extreme. It would completely go against the ethos of the website.

Rowan, please could you involve Bullying UK involved in your discussions, alongside the Samaritans?

@ExtraWickedDevil

What I would really like is some honesty. Troll hunting is bullying and it is really unedifying to read posts from people who are kicking vulnerable people when they are down. Do they get banned? Or are they just " reminded" of the talk guidelines?

Well, our usual MO is to first clock that someone has done it once; then to mail them if they do it again, reminding them of the Guidelines; then to take it further (sin-binning or banning permanently) if they carry on. This isn't set in stone; sometimes we'll ban outright if someone seems to have joined up purely to troll-hunt and be nasty, sometimes we'll warn people a few times (if they're otherwise a poster with a record of being genuinely helpful and supportive) before moving to more extreme measures. But it IS against our rules and it DOES get dealt with.

Show me where any so-called trollhunter has posted on a "suicide" thread telling the OP to do anything at all....?

If I am to be classed as a trollhunter (I imagine I am according to the huggyhunnysavers) then what I do on these threads is a) report and b) roll my eyes slightly at the sheer stupidity of people believing everything they read to the point of PMing phone numbers/sending money to paypal accounts/shrieking at HQ to "do something"/leap into the batmobile and drive off to fuck knows where to meet fuck knows who. Seriously, some people shouldn't be left alone in charge of a laptop at times.

And you don't tend to need to "hunt" trolls by and large. They are so glaringly obvious. I've yet to be surprised by anyone unmasked on here as one. Although there is one long term recurring one whose brass neck audacity never ceases to amaze, but I've never been under any illusion that truth figures highly on her agenda.

But carry on patting yourselves on the back. Day will come when you'll feel so violated by one of these trolling bitches. Trust me. But meantime, carry on sticking the knives into the people who are trying to point out just how many of them there are on this site. Way to go.

Maybe it's just me, but I use MNet now with a lot more cynicism and a lot less personal input. Maybe posting in style and beauty because I need all the help I can get, good housekeeping and less controversial threads on AIBU and Chat.

I occasionally browse other areas, but I hide quite a lot from Active as I know they will upset/antagonise me.

I have flounced before because I posted for help and felt ignored - but that doesn't last, and I was soon back.

I guess it's just not putting out more than you can afford to give...

Sngria there was a thread the other night about how posters thought they should be able to call troll whenever they liked and it became full of posts basically calling Wombat a troll. and then MN were absolutely screamed at for deleting it. ANd then wouldn't you know it? it turns out Wombat, who as far as anyone knows is someone in a very dark place, saw the posts calling her a troll because posters carried on doing it even after the thread was deleteod and wombat was incredibly upset by them. So no nobody told anyone to go and do anything but the upshot seems to be that someone in a really bad place was made to feel a hell of a lot worse. I'll never understand why people feel they're entitled to go around doing this. I realise you're saying you wouldn't but lots of people do and it's fucked up. It's a thread on the internet fgs. If you (general 'you') don't like it, step away.

Its a tough one, as people who are suffering, do need somewhere to post.

I've answered a few on the MH board, whilst feeling quite out of depth. However its worrying to see people in distress.

MNHQ I don't envy your job.

I agree that locking the suicide threads after posting appropriate RL helplines etc should be the way forward. MN is not and cannot be responsible for the safety of its many many users. Whilst advice and discussion of issues is positive and helpful, there needs to be a line somewhere.
And the public troll calling doesn't help in either scenario - genuine situation and you're causing hurt, actual troll and you're just increasing the reply count and bumping it up the board. The report function needs to be promoted / utilised better.

I agree that the troll-hunting can come across as bullying. Personally, I think more needs to be done to crack down on anyone publically calling troll. If people are worried that others are being sucked in they can report to MNHQ & PM those they're concerned about to share their theory. That won't cause any distress to a genuine poster in an unusual situation.

Is there any way of setting up an automatic lock on a thread if enough different posters report it? That way anything suspicious enough to get a lot of reports can be put on hold until someone can check it out.

I love the idea of linking up with The Samaritans. Perhaps it could be done via PM - the thread gets reported to MNHQ, they flag it up with The Samaritans who then PM the OP & the thread gets locked/deleted with a message including The Samaritans' contact details & that the OP is being offered support from them. That way, the OP won't have to make the first step in reaching out for help again, the support can happen online, rather than them having to speak to someone properly which could be too confronting for them, & any less than genuine person would probably get bored pretty quickly if they weren't getting all the attention on thread.

& for MNHQ while you try to sort this mess out!

And why was my post deleted?!?! That was quick! Trolls posts last longer than that!

Derek, it was deleted because of your remark that you were 'calling bullshit' on a thread. As we said in the OP, we really want to keep this discussion general and we will delete troll-hunting posts.

I think holding Mn up as a 'lifeline' is unrealistic and people who do so are expecting too much.

There is one thread at the moment that I don't necesarily believe, but I read anyway, it is such a dramatic story.

But, I think the more attention we give to trolls, the more they will thrive. I think the best approach is to ignore or hide the threads that seem not quite right.

Then we can all focus on the good stuff we like. I like threads about the cost of a weekly shop.

As I posted elsewhere, I think that whenever someone posts a threat of imminent suicide, the thread should be deleted immediately. It is utterly irresponsible to allow such threads to continue. I would imagine that any health care provider worth his/her salt would stay far away from such threads, and it's sheer recklessness for an untrained person (however well-meaning) to wade in with hopes of saving a suicidal individual.

As for the issue of trolls and troll-hunting, we absolutely cannot tell if someone posting a suicide note is on the level. The OP of the thread the other night may be genuine or she may not be. When people confidently state that it is obvious she was distressed, they are endowing themselves with powers they cannot realistically possess. We don't know if she was genuinely distressed. MNHQ has access to information that regular posters do not have, but even HQ can't know the truth of the matter with certainty.

MN attracts more trolls than any other site I have ever belonged to. Any large site (and even some small ones) will have to cope with trolling now and again. It's the nature of the internet beast. But MN is unusual in the number of trolls who manage to reel in trusting (and gullible) people. For all the trolls who are unmasked, there are many more who trundle along without attracting as much attention. I think the trolls who are identified tend to be the ones who get caught up in the drama of their own making and start to post far-fetched details. The quiet fantasists who haven't posted anything that will raise alarm bells just continue along in their merry way.

Ok. I'll type it again missing bits out.

As I said people don't report threads as the usual reply is just 'we will keep an eye out'

People who comment on the thread to let others know to be careful not to be sucked in are rounded on and called bully's. And are troll hunters and are basically shouted down.

Yet when it comes to like that it was in fact a troll do the people who warned others get an apology?! Do they fuck. Instead they get to see threads started by the savers wanting sympathy as they have been fooled yet again and how they are the victim.

They were warned but their saviour complex made them ignore that. Now trolls are free to roam around the site talking bullshit and having people share their RL experiences and dragging problems up for others because people won't warn others anymore due to the ganging up that follows.

There really is a difference between people posting who need support because they are struggling and those who essentially post their suicide note. Mumsnetters can't help the latter and their threads should be locked immediately with contact details for the Samaritans. The former should be monitored more closely than the norm by MNHQ and any posted in chat or AIBU etc should be moved to mental health immediately.
Joining dates should be added to posters names too, a month and year really wouldn't compromise posters' anonymity.

Yes there are a lot of people speaking bullshit on MN